>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY. "

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> I VIEW IT AS CLOSE TO OVER.

>> WITH THE UNITED STATES AND IRAN BLOCKADING THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, PRESIDENTIAL APPROVAL RATINGS ARE SINKING.

I ASK MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE ABOUT TRUMP'S BASE.

PAKISTAN THE PEACE BROKER AS TRUMP HINTS TALKS COULD RAHM.

WE EXAMINE THE ROLE OF PAKISTAN'S POWERFUL LEADER.

>> IT REMAINS THE LARGEST DISRUPTION OF WORLD ENERGY THAT EVER OCCURRED.

>> HOW CHINA AND RUSSIA BENEFIT.

>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE STRAUSS FOUNDATION.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

COMMITTED TO CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN THE COMMITTEES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATIONS LIKE YOU.

>> PAKISTAN'S FIELD MARSHALL IS IN TEHRAN TRYING TO BRIDGE GAPS BETWEEN THERE AND THE UNITED STATES AS TRUMP SIGNALLED ANOTHER AROUND OF TALKS COULD COME SOON IN PAKISTAN.

THE WORLD ENERGY SUPPLY CONTINUES TO BE CHOKED BY IRAN AND AMERICA'S BLOCKADE ON THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

TRUMP ADMITTED AMERICANS WILL SUFFER.

>> THERE IS A HIT BECAUSE WE GO THROUGH IT FOR SIX WEEKS.

THERE IS GOING TO BE A HIT, BUT IT IS GOING TO RECOVER FULLY.

I THINK OIL WILL BE DOWN TO THE LEVELS THAT IT WAS.

YOU KNOW THEY SAID I EXPECT OIL TO BE HIGH AT THE MIDTERMS.

I DON'T EXPECT THAT.

>> MIXED MESSAGES AS AMERICANS FEEL THE PINCH, AND THE POLLS LOOK LESS GOOD FOR THE PRESIDENT.

ONLY 24% OF ALL-AMERICANS THINK THE WAR IS WORTH IT.

JUST OVER HALF OF REPUBLICANS FEEL THAT WAY ACCORDING TO THE "NEW YORK TIMES" ANALYSIS OF THE LATEST REUTERS SURVEY.

THIS IS DRAINING SUPPORT FROM TRUMP'S MAGA BASE.

ONE OF THE MOST VOCAL IS THE FORMER CONGRESSWOMAN MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE.

A YEAR AGO SHE WORE A BASEBALL CAP THAT SAID TRUMP WAS RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING.

TODAY NOT SO MUCH.

HANDLING THE EPSTEIN FILES AND BACKTRACKING ON THE NO MORE WARS PROMISE.

NOT TO MENTION THE JESUS DEBATE.

TAYLOR GREENE IS CALLING FOR THE PRESIDENT'S REMOVAL.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I AM NOT SURE HOW MANY OF THE INTERNATIONAL INTERVIEWS YOU HAVE DONE.

YOU HAVE DONE A LOT IN THE UNITED STATES.

BUT IT IS A MEASURE OF HOW MUCH YOUR POSITION IS CAUSING INTEREST IN THE UNITED STATES AND AROUND THE WORLD.

YOU HAVE BEEN VERY CRITICAL OF PRESIDENT TRUMP RECENTLY.

WHEN HE MADE THE APOCALYPTIC THREAT TO WIPE OUT A WHOLE CIVILIZATION WILL DIE TONIGHT AND NEVER BE BROUGHT BACK.

THAT IS WHAT HE SAID ABOUT IRAN.

YOU RESPONDED 25th AMENDMENT.

TELL US WHAT YOU MEANT.

>> I WAS SHOCKED AND HORRIFIED THAT THE PRESIDENT, THE MAN THAT I SUPPORTED AND HELPED GET ELECTED WOULD CALL FOR AN ENTIRE CIVILIZATION OF PEOPLE TO BE MURDERED.

WHEN HE TALKS ABOUT A CIVILIZATION, HE IS TALKING ABOUT EVERY MAN, WOMAN AND CHILD IN THE COUNTRY OF IRAN TO BE KILLED.

I THINK THAT IS COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE FOR THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND FOR ANY LEADER OF ANY COUNTRY AROUND THE WORLD TO CALL FOR AN ENTIRE CIVILIZATION TO BE KILLED.

INNOCENTS.

THE INNOCENT LIVES TO BE WIPED OUT.

THAT GAVE ME GRAVE CONCERN FOR HIS MENTAL CAPACITY.

THAT IS WHAT THE 25th AMENDMENT IS FOR.

>> JUST TO BE CLEAR, IT IS TO -- YOU KNOW, THROUGH CONGRESS AND THROUGH THE OFFICIAL ROUTES IT IS TO REMOVE A PRESIDENT IF THERE IS --THEY ARE DEEMED UNFIT TO BE ABLE TO CARRY OUT THEIR DUTIES.

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT NOW?

>> YES.

I THINK THAT HIS MENTAL CAPACITY NEEDS TO BE EXAMINED.

HIS RHETORIC HAS BEEN SHOCKING TO MANY AMERICANS AND TO PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD.

THIS IS A WAR THAT MANY AMERICANS, ESPECIALLY YOUNGER GENERATIONS WHO I SIDE WITH MOST OF THE TIME DO NOT SUPPORT.

WE MADE CAMPAIGN PROMISES IN 2024 TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

NO MORE FOREIGN WARS.

NO MORE FOREIGN REGIME CHANGE.

AND TO PUT AMERICA AS OUR FOCUS.

THAT MEANS THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND OUR ECONOMY AND OUR FUTURE, REALLY.

HOWEVER WE HAVE SEEN A DRASTIC CHANGE HERE.

I CALL THIS WAR AN UNPROVOKED WAR.

PRESIDENT TRUMP AND PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHOO ENGAGED THE WAR AGAINST IRAN.

THERE HASN'T BEEN A SINGLE BOMB FALL ON AMERICA.

HERE WE ARE SPENDING NEARLY $2 BILLION A DAY.

YES.

I DO THINK THAT IT SHOULD BE DISCUSSED ALTHOUGH IT IS VERY UNLIKELY THAT THE 25th AMENDMENT WILL BE USED.

>> MANY PEOPLE WERE OFFENDED AND CONCERNED AND MANY CHRISTIANS AROUND THE WORLD WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP ESSENTIALLY ATTACKED THE POPE CALLING HIM WEAK ON JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING, AND THEN SOMEHOW PRESENTED HIMSELF IN A CHRIST-LIKE IMAGE AS THE GREAT HEALER WITH A HALO AND DEPICTIONS IN LIGHT.

IT DEFINITELY LOOKED LIKE A DELIBERATE IMAGE.

>> IT WAS PRESIDENT TRUMP PRESENTING HIMSELF TO BE JESUS AND REPLACE GOD.

THAT WAS EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE TO CHRISTIANS AND CATHOLICS ALL OVER THE WORLD.

EVEN FURTHER, HE TRIED TO SWEEP IT AWAY SAYING HE WAS TRYING TO REPRESENT HIMSELF AS A DOCTOR WHICH IS LYING.

HE DIDN'T APOLOGIZE.

IT IS RIDICULOUS.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS.

IT IS SOMETHING HE OWES CHRISTIANS AN APOLOGY.

>> HERE IS MIKE JOHNSON, THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ABOUT THIS ISSUE.

>> I TALKED WITH THE PRESIDENT ABOUT IT SOON AS I SAW IT AND TOLD HIM I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS BEING RECEIVED IN THE SAME WAY HE INTENDED.

HE EXPLAINED HOW HE SAW THAT.

I DON'T THINK HE THOUGHT IT WAS SACRELIGIOUS AT ALL.

ARE YOU SATISFIED WITH JOHNSON'S RESPONSE?

>> NO, I AM NOT.

SPEAKER JOHNSON CONSTANTLY OUT TOS HIMSELF AS A CHRISTIAN AND BRAGS ON THAT IN THE WAY THAT HE SPEAKS OF HIMSELF.

I THINK HE SHOULD HAVE SAID MORE.

I THINK THIS IS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE.

WE HAVE TO BE CLEAR-EYED ON EXACTLY WHAT IT IS.

HE IS NOT JESUS OR GOD.

HE IS A MAN NO DIFFERENT THAN ANY MAN HERE ON EARTH.

IF HE IS NOT UNDERSTANDING WHY IT WAS OFFENSIVE TO CHRISTIANS, I WOULD CALL ON THE CHRISTIAN LEADERS AROUND HIM SUCH AS PAULA WHITE, FRANKLIN GRAHAM, SPEAKER JOHNSON AND OTHERS THAT NEED TO BE A MUCH BETTER JOB OF EXPLAINING WHY IT WAS OFFENSIVE AND WHY IT IS APPROPRIATE HE APOLOGIZE.

>> AS WE NOTED YOU HAVE BROKEN WITH TRUMP AND I SUPPOSE HE HAS BROKEN WITH YOU.

HE DOES A PLAY ON WORDS WITH YOUR NAME, MARJORIE TRAITOR GREENE.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT IS GOING ON?

FIRST, I WANT TO ASK YOU WHY YOU THINK TRUMP IS BEHAVING THIS WAY WITH CIVILIAN ERASURE IN IRAN AND THIS JESUS DEPICTION.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING ON?

>> THANK YOU FOR BRINGING THAT UP.

JUST TO BE CLEAR PRESIDENT TRUMP CALLED ME A TRAITOR BECAUSE I FOUGHT TO RELEASE THE EPSTEIN FILES, DEFENDING WOMEN WHO WERE RAPED AT 14 AND 16 YEARS OLD.

I WOULD NOT OBEY HIS DEMANDS OF TAKING MY NAME OFF OF THE DISCHARGE PETITION.

THAT IS WHY HE CALLS ME A TRAITOR.

I AM NOT A TRAITOR TO THE UNITED STATES.

I STAND WITH WOMEN AND VICTIMS.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON.

I THINK THAT IS THE CONVERSATION THAT NEEDS TO BE HAD.

I THINK IT IS AN EXTREMELY IMPORTANT CONVERSATION.

WHY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WANTS TO PORTRAY HIMSELF AS GOD AND WHY HE WOULD DARE EVEN USE THE WORDS WIPE OUT AN ENTIRE CIVILIZATION.

I THINK MANY PEOPLE, NOT ONLY IN OUR COUNTRY AND ALL ACROSS THE WORLD ARE SO DEEPLY CONCERNED AND OFFENDED BY THE LANGUAGE THAT IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO TO BE TALKING ABOUT IT.

>> WE DIDN'T MENTION IT, BUT YOU ALSO RETIRED OR RESIGNED FROM CONGRESS, AND YOU ARE NOT AN ACTIVE CONGRESSWOMAN RIGHT NOW.

YOU KNOW, IN DOING A LOT OF READING FOR THIS INTERVIEW, A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT YOU SAID NOW AND WHAT YOU HAVE SAID.

WHAT IS AT THE HEART OF YOUR GRIPE IS THE WRONG WAY, BUT YOUR DISAGREEMENT WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP RIGHT NOW, AND ONE ANALYST OR POLITICAL ANALYST SAID THAT YOU SEEM TO HAVE RECOGNIZED THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS BROKEN FAITH WITH HIS OWN FOLLOWERS.

DO YOU THINK YOU ARE SEEING SOMETHING BIGGER THAN JUST WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW?

YOU HAVE BEEN A PROMINENT MEMBER OF THE MAGA, AMERICA- FIRST MOVEMENT.

IS THERE SOMETHING BIGGER GOING ON?

THAN THE QUOTES THAT HE PUT OUT IN PUBLIC.

>> MANY PEOPLE MAY NOT KNOW THAT MY TIME IN CONGRESS, I SPENT CALLING OUT REPUBLICANS JUST AS FREQUENTLY AS I DID DEMOCRATS.

I BELIEVE IT IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT TO FOLLOW THROUGH ON THE PERHAPS THAT ELECTED LEADERS MAKE TO THE PEOPLE THAT ELECT THEM.

AFTER ALL, THAT IS WHO THEY WORK FOR.

NOT SPECIAL INTEREST AND ANYONE ELSE.

AS FAR AS PRESIDENT TRUMP IS CONCERNED, I AM NOT SURE EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING ON WITH HIM, BUT I HAVE BEEN CALLING FOR PEOPLE IN THE CABINET, THE ADMINISTRATION AND REPUBLICANS TO ENGAGE IN THE CONVERSATIONS.

THIS IS EXTREMELY CONCERNING.

THIS IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WHO IS WAGING AN EXTREMELY CONCERNING WAR IN IRAN THAT SEEMS TO BE ESCALATING.

THE UNITED STATES IS ALSO FUNDING THEM WITH WEAPONS AS THEY DECLARE AND WAGE WAR ON LEBANON AND HAVE KILLED MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE IN GAZA.

I, MYSELF AS AN AMERICAN, NOT JUST A FORMER MEMBER OF CONGRESS THINK THAT IT IS IMPORTANT TO SPEAK OUT ON THIS AND TO CALL FOR ACCOUNTABILITY.

ACCOUNTABILITY, NOT FOR ONLY THE CURRENT DIRECTION THAT THE PRESIDENT IS GOING IN, BUT ALSO ACCOUNTABILITY TO THE PROMISES THAT HE MADE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE IN 2024.

>> NO FOREIGN WARS, AMERICA-FIRST.

THAT TYPE OF THING?

>> YES.

>> YES.

NO MORE FOREIGN WARS, AMERICA-FIRST.

>> I THINK ON THE EPSTEIN FILES, DIDN'T THE PRESIDENT SAY DURING THE CAMPAIGN THEY WERE GOING TO RELEASE ALL OF THE EVIDENCE, ALL OF THE FILES?

>> YES.

THAT WAS TALKED ABOUT FOR YEARS, NOT ONLY BY THE PRESIDENT.

IT WAS BASICALLY A BLANKET CAMPAIGN PROMISE FOR REPUBLICANS OVERALL.

SO THAT SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN A FIGHT THAT I HAD TO HAVE WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP.

IT WAS THE BIGGEST FIGHT THAT LED TO HIM CALLING ME A TRAITOR AND LED TO ME RESIGNING AND REFUSE TO SERVE UNDER A PRESIDENT THAT PUBLICLY PLEDGED TO DESTROY ME.

I THOUGHT THAT WAS INCREDIBLY UNFAIR TO MY DISTRICT.

THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT HAVE MANY OF US CONCERNED AND CAUSED A GIANT DIVIDE AMONG THE BASE OF PEOPLE THAT SUPPORTED PRESIDENT TRUMP.

>> THAT IS THE THING I AM VERY INTERESTED IN.

YOU KNOW BETTER THAN I DO, THERE WAS AN ELECTION TO FILL YOUR SEAT.

CLAY FULLER WAS SWORN IN.

I THINK I HEARD YOU TALK ABOUT YOUR WORRY THAT THE SPLIT AND THE BROKEN PROMISES TO REPUBLICANS AND TO THE MAGA BASE IS SHOWING UP IN THE LACK OF TURN OUT AND WHAT POTENTIALLY MIGHT HAPPEN IN THE MIDTERMS.

IS THAT A WORRY?

AM I READING THAT RIGHT?

>> YES.

IT IS.

IT IS SOMETHING THAT I ACTUALLY TALKED ABOUT IN MID-2025.

I SAW IT COMING EARLY.

THIS IS LIKE WHEN YOU HIRE A COMPANY TO RENOVATE YOUR KITCHEN.

IF THEY DO A BAD JOB YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HIRE THEM TO RENOVATE ANOTHER PART OF YOUR HOUSE.

THAT IS HOW IT WORKS AND HOW PEOPLE ARE.

SO, WHEN I SAW IT EARLY ON PRESIDENT TRUMP MAKING CHANGES FROM WHAT HE PROMISED AND REPUBLICANS JUST OBEYING WHATEVER PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID INSTEAD OF SAYING NO MR.

PRESIDENT.

THESE ARE THE THINGS WE NEED TO BE DOING.

I CALLED IT OUT EARLY THAT REPUBLICANS ARE GO TO LOSE THE MIDTERMS.

WE HAVE SEEN IT IN RACES ALL OVER THE COUNTRY THAT HAVE BEEN HELD IN 2025 AND NOW IN 2026.

DEMOCRATS ARE SURGING AND REPUBLICANS ARE LOSING OR BARELY WINNING BY MUCH SMALLER MARGINS LIKE THE SPECIAL ELECTION IN MY DISTRICT.

THIS IS A HUGE WARNING FOR THE MIDTERMS.

THERE WAS AN EVENT YESTERDAY IN ATHENS, GEORGIA FOR TURNING POINT USA WHERE VICE PRESIDENT JD VANCE CAME TO SPEAK AT THE UNIVERSITY OF GEORGIA IN ATHENS.

I THINK THERE WAS BETWEEN 300 TO 500 PEOPLE IN A NEARLY 7,000-SEAT AUDITORIUM.

THIS SHOULD BE WARNING SIGNS FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

IT IS PARTICULARLY CONCERNING FOR MY HOME STATE OF GEORGIA THAT COULD EASILY FLIP BLUE IF REPUBLICANS ARE SO ANGRY AND FURIOUS AT PRESIDENT TRUMP THAT THEY JUST DO NOT TURN OUT TO VOTE.

>> THERE IS NO SECRET.

YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW THAT HE NEVER HAS BEEN A BEACON OF MORALE PRINCIPLE.

HIS CHRISTIAN SUPPORTERS ADMITTED THAT CALLING HIM AN UNLIKELY VESSEL BUT CHOSEN BY GOD FOR A HIGHER PURPOSE.

WE WILL SUPPORT HIM.

HE WILL HELP US GET OUR CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES ENACTED IN TO LAW.

YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENED WITH RO VS.

WADE -- ROE VERSUS WADE AND OTHERS.

ARE YOU SURPRISED HE VIOLATES CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES OR MAGA PRINCIPLES, AMERICA- FIRST PRINCIPLES NOW.

SHOULD YOU HAVE KNOWN BETTER?

>> THAT IS VERY HARD TO EXPLAIN IN A SHORT MATTER OF MINUTES.

I ONLY KNEW PRESIDENT TRUMP WHILE HE WAS OUT OF OFFICE.

I DID NOT KNOW HIM IN MY FIRST TERM.

I WASN'T A MEMBER OF CONGRESS THEN.

I BECAME A MEMBER OF CONGRESS IN JANUARY 2021.

I CAMPAIGNED FOR THE PRESIDENT.

THAT WAS MY RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM.

IT WAS AFTER HE CAME IN TO OFFICE WHERE I SAW HIM DIFFERENTLY AND WHERE HE BEGAN TO CHANGE AND SUPPORTED ISSUES THAT HE WAS AGAINST.

THAT HAS BEEN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

IS HE GOING BACK ON WHAT MANY CHRISTIANS WANT TO SEE HAPPEN?

I WOULD THINK SO.

>> YOU ARE NOT ALONE AMONGST MAGA.

ALL QUITE CONTROVERSIAL, AS YOU KNOW.

THEY HAVE ALSO BEEN ACCUSED OF PLATFORMING ANTI-SEMITIC VIEWS.

IS THAT AN ISSUE?

ARE YOU COMFORTABLE WITH THE COMPANY THAT YOU KEEP?

ALSO BEING AGAINST ISRAEL.

WHAT DID WE HAVE RECENTLY?

NICK FUENTES WHO WAS TALKED TO BY TUCKER CARLSON SAYING MY PROBLEM IS TRUMP IS NOT HITLER ENOUGH.

I AM SURE HE WAS, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO MAKE A DIFFERENT POINT.

>> I DON'T ANSWER FOR OTHER PEOPLE.

I CAN TELL YOU IT IS NOT ANTI-SEMITIC TO BE AGAINST THE SECULAR GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL AND THEIR WARS.

THAT IS NOT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THAT IS ANTI- WAR.

I HAVE A STRONG HISTORY OF BEING ANTI- WAR.

NOT JUST THE WAR IN IRAN OR AGAINST ISRAEL'S GENOCIDE IN GAZA AND WHAT THEY ARE DOING IN LEBANON.

I WAS AGAINST THE U. S. FUNDING OF UKRAINE.

MY VOTING RECORD SHOWS THAT.

WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, WE ARE SPEAKING OUT LIKE MANY AMERICANS ARE.

WE ARE TIRED OF THE UNITED STATES AND OUR TAX DOLLARS HAVING TO FUND THE WARS.

WE ARE TIRED OF SEEING THE MILITARY SERVE IN THE WARS IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES.

MANY OF THEM ARE FRIENDS AND FAMILY MEMBER AND THEY COME HOME WITH PTSD OR A FLAG- DRAPED COUGHIN.

WE ARE NOT AGAINST THAT.

THAT IS LITERALLY SAYING THAT WE ARE TIRED OF AMERICA FIGHTING DIFFERENT COUNTRIES WARS ON THEIR BEHALF.

THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING IN IRAN.

>> DO YOU REGRET SUPPORTING TRUMP FOR PRESIDENT AND WHERE DO YOU THINK THE MOVEMENT AND THE COUNTRY IS HEADED.

WILL YOU POSITION YOURSELF TO TAKE THE REPUBLICAN SIDE BACK TO WHAT YOU BELIEVE THE AMERICA-FIRST PRINCIPLES?

>> I DO NOT REGRET WHAT I CAMPAIGNED ON.

NOTHING ABOUT ME HAS CHANGED.

IN 2024 WHEN I HELPED PRESIDENT TRUMP GET ELECTED HE WAS CLEAR ON WHAT WE WERE CAMPAIGNING ON.

WHAT I DON'T SUPPORT IS THE MAN HE IS TURNING IN TO BE.

A MAN HELLBENT ON WAR AND DESTRUCTION AND HAS FORGOTTEN ABOUT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THAT ARE STRUGGLING SO MUCH AND IS INCREDIBLY FOCUSED ON HIS BIGGEST DONORS AND THEIR TOP ISSUES.

I AM LOOKING PAST DONALD TRUMP.

I AM LOOKING TOWARDS A FUTURE FOCUSED ON MY CHILDREN'S GENERATION.

THEY ARE ALL IN THEIR 20s.

THAT IS THE GENERATION WE SHOULD BE FIGHTING FOR AND THE GENERATION THAT HAS BEEN LARGELY FAILED.

I WILL CONTINUE TO BE VOCAL.

WE HAVE TO LOOK TO THE FUTURE AND HOW TO SOLVE THE PROBLEMS FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

>> MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

GOOD TO SPEAK WITH YOU.

>> DESPITE NO DIPLOMATIC BREAK THROUGH IN THE FIRST ROUND OF TALKS BETWEEN IRAN AND THE UNITED STATES IN PAKISTAN, IT DID MARK THE HIGHEST LEVEL MEETING BETWEEN THEM SINCE THE 1979 ISLAMIC REVOLUTION.

PAKISTAN'S ROLE AS KEY MEDIATOR IS CRUCIAL.

I AM JOINED NOW FROM ISLAMABAD TO DISCUSS THE NEGOTIATIONS.

GENERAL, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

THE FIELD MARSHALL HAS BEEN IN IRAN.

IT IS KNOWN HE IS FRONT AND CENTER TRYING TO GET A CEASE-FIRE AND END OF WAR.

CAN YOU TELL ME WHERE YOU THINK THE SITUATION IS NOW AND WILL THERE BE ANOTHER ROUND OF TALKS?

>> LET ME COMMENT ON WHAT PAKISTAN HAS ACHIEVED FROM THE U. S. MILITARY CAMPAIGNS.

THE END OF VIETNAM.

U. S. STARTED TO TALK WITH THE VIETNAMESE IN PARIS AND IN 1973.

NEGOTIATE STARTED TO NEGOTIATE WITH THE TALIBAN IN 2012.

FINALLY THERE COULD BE AGREEMENT IN 2021.

WHAT HAPPENED THIS TIME, EVERYBODY WAS NERVOUS IN THE REGION.

I THINK FOLLOWING THE EVENTS GLOBALLY AS WELL.

THERE IS SOMETHING BIG AND WORSE GOING TO HAPPEN ON THE 8th OF APRIL.

PAKISTAN MEDIATED A CEASE-FIRE FOR 15 DAYS.

CEASE- FIRE IN A CONFLICT THROUGH WHICH EVERY HOUSEHOLD IN THE WORLD WAS AFFECTED.

PAKISTAN PULLED IT OFF.

THE NEXT 72 HOURS THE RIVALS WHO HAD THIS RIVALRY WERE SITTING ON THE TABLE AND TALKING TO EACH OTHER.

THAT IS A GREAT ACHIEVEMENT.

EVERYBODY IN PAKISTAN IS PROUD OF OUR ACHIEVEMENT.

HE HAS HAD AN ADVANTAGE WHICH HASN'T BEEN DISCUSSED MUCH.

WE ARE UNDER A GLOBAL SPOTLIGHT AS MEDIATORS BUT MANY PEOPLE DID NOT KNOW WHAT TYPE OF -- HE TOOK OVER AS THE DIRECTOR GENERAL OF MILITARY INTELLIGENCE IN 2016.

FOR FOUR YEARS HE HAS BEEN THE ARMY CHIEF.

PAKISTAN'S MILITARY DIPLOMACY HAS HAD A UNIQUE POSITION.

WHY?

IN THE REGION MILITARY LEADERSHIP TRADITIONALLY BECAUSE OF A NUMBER OF REASONS HAS BEEN DIRECT AND RELEVANT TO MANY IMPORTANT STAKEHOLDERS ACROSS MANY STATES IN THE REGION.

SEE.

HE IS ONE MAN IN SAUDI ARABIA AND IN QATAR AND UAE, KUWAIT, IRAN, CONSISTENTLY SINCE THE LAST CONFLICT OF JUNE 2025.

NOW EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD KNOWS THE FONDNESS OF PRESIDENT TRUMP FOR FIELD MARSHALL.

HE HAD RELEVANCE TO EVERYBODY WHO HAD AN IMPORTANT STAKE AND AN IMPORTANT ROLE TO PLAY IN THIS CONFLICT.

>> LISTEN, THAT HAS BEEN ON, YOU KNOW, GLOBAL DISPLAY OVER THE LAST WEEK OR MORE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN NEXT?

WHY IS HE IN TEHRAN.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE AMERICANS ARE SAYING.

VICE PRESIDENT VANCE LEFT SAYING IRAN CHOSE NOT TO ACCEPT OUR TERMS.

THE IRANIANS FIRED BACK BY SAYING WE DO NOT CAPITULATE AND SURRENDER.

THIS HAS TO BE A NEGOTIATION.

WHERE DO YOU THINK THERE MIGHT BE ROOM FOR FURTHER NEGOTIATION IN A SECOND ROUND?

>> THE CEASE-FIRE IS HOLDING.

THE TIMELINE 21st OF APRIL.

DESPITE THE BLOCKADE IN PLACE --EVERYBODY KNOWS THERE ARE VERY CLEAR POSITIONS TAKEN BY AMERICAN LEADERS.

THE CONDITIONS SET THERE FROM BOTH SIDES.

THEY HAVE BEEN VERY CLEAR STANCE FROM THE IRANIAN SIDE THAT THERE WAS AGREEMENT ON MOST OF THE THINGS.

THERE WERE STICKING POINTS ABOUT THE STATUS OF THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ IN THE FUTURE AND THE URANIUM ENRICHED BY 60%, THE DISPOSAL AND THE FUTURE OF THE IRANIAN NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

THERE WAS A MEANINGFUL DISCUSSION ON THOSE, BUT THERE WAS NO AGREEMENT.

FIELD MARSHALL BY NATURE IS A RELENTLESS PERSON.

HE DOESN'T GIVE UP EASILY.

I KNOW HE WOULD TALK TO THEM ABOUT THE MILITARY SITUATION.

HE WOULD TALK ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES AND THE COST.

WHAT COULD BE ON OFFER IF THAT IS AVERTED.

I AM CONFIDENT THAT HE HAS A MESSAGE THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN A POSSIBLE RENEWED POSITION FOR NEGOTIATIONS COMMUNICATED TO FIELD MARSHALL, AND HE WILL BE TALKING TO THEM PASSIONATELY AND INTENSELY.

WE HAVE GREAT HOPES FOR WHAT WE HAVE HEARD IN MANY STATEMENTS COMING FROM IRAN AND THE U. S. THAT THERE IS INCREASING CHANCE OF --THERE IS A LOT OF HOPE.

THERE ARE VERY CLEAR EXPRESSIONS COMING FROM BOTH SIDES THAT THERE IS LIKELY TO BE ANOTHER ENGAGEMENT AT THE SAME LEVEL.

NOW THE UNITED STATES IS ALSO BLOCKADING AND THE IRANIANS ARE TOO.

IT STILL HAS A MATERIAL IMPACT ON THE EXPORT OF CRITICAL ENERGY.

YOU GET 85% OF YOUR OIL FROM SAUDI ARABIA AND IT COMES BY THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

IS THIS HITTING YOUR ECONOMY?

HOW URGENT IS IT FOR YOU AS A NATION TO GET THIS RESOLVED?

>> YOU SEE IN PAKISTAN, THE GOVERNMENT HAS DONE BRILLIANTLY IN MANAGING THE EFFECTS OF 41, 42 DAYS CONFLICT.

ONE COUNTRY IN THE REGION YOU DO NOT FIND LONG QUEUES ON GAS STATIONS OR EVIDENCE OF THIS IN THIS COUNTRY.

THE SUPPLY CHAIN HAS BEEN MANAGED VERY WELL.

A MILITARY PERSPECTIVE OF THE BLOCKADE.

ANYONE NOW ENGAGING WITH THE IRANIANS, THE FIRST OBSERVATION, THE FRUSTRATION THEY ARE GOING TO EXPRESS IS THAT EVERYTHING ON THE TABLE THERE WERE MILITARY MOVES ON THE GROUND.

HAPPENED IN 2025.

HAPPENED WHEN THEY WERE TALKING ON THE NUCLEAR ISSUE UNTIL 26th, 27th OF FEBRUARY.

IT WAS SITTING ON THE TABLE, THERE WERE MILITARY MOVES UNDERWAY FOR THIS BLOCKADE.

MILITARILY WHAT COULD IT LEAD TO?

THE STRENGTH TO OPPOSE THE BLOCKADE IS NOT COMPETITIVE ON THE IRANIAN SIDE, BUT DON'T FORGET THEIR CAPACITY FOR A SYMMETRIC WAR OR WAR OF ATTRITION.

IF IT ENDURES WITHOUT OPPOSITION FROM IRANIANS IT WILL STRENGTHEN AMERICAN BARGAINING POSITION.

IF YOU FIND IRANIANS ATTACKING FUEL VESSEL S THERE OBJECTION BE A DANGEROUS AND WIDESPREAD ESCALATION IN THE REGION.

THEY ARE ALSO CONSIDERING USE OF MILITARY INSTRUMENTS AGAINST IRAN.

THIS COULD GO ANY WAY.

IF IT DOES NOT GO BACK TO THAT MOST CRITICAL QUESTION WOULD BE WHO WILL BE ALLOWED TO PASS THROUGH THE BLOCKADE AND WHO WILL NOT BE?

THE MAJOR EXPORTS OF OIL FOR THE IRANIANS WILL NEED TO PASS THROUGH THE BLOCKADE.

EVERYONE KNOWS THEIR MAIN CUSTOMER IS CHINA.

WILL THE BLOCKADE PREVENT CHINESE VESSELS MOVING BOTH WAYS AND WHAT TYPE OF CONSEQUENCES WILL THAT HAVE.

>> YEAH.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT CHINA.

OF COURSE THERE IS A LOT OF CONVERSATION AROUND THE CEASE- FIRE THAT CHINA PLAYED A VERY IMPORTANT ROLE GETTING IRAN TO ACCEPT THE CEASE- FIRE.

WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THAT?

THE WAY THAT IT HAPPENED, EVERYONE KNOWS CHINA AND PAKISTAN'S RELATIONSHIP IS VERY STRONG.

EVERYONE KNOWS THROUGH INITIAL COMMUNICATION THERE WAS A CLEAR INTENT FROM BOTH SIDE S S FOR NEGOTIATING IT.

PAKISTAN LEADERSHIP SPOKE TO CHINA AND EVERYONE IN THE REGION AND ALSO HAD CONVERSATION WITH THE UNITED STATES SECRETARY GENERAL.

CHINESE GIVE A STATEMENT IT HAS A PROMISE.

WHAT WAS SAID IN THOSE PIPELINES, THAT WHATEVER THE ISSUE, NO MATTER WHAT THE COMPLEXITY, WE MUST HAVE IT RESOLVED USING DIPLOMACY AND OTHER PEACEFUL MEANS TO RESOLVE THOSE.

THAT HAS HAD A HUGE INFLUENCE.

>> YOU KNOW THERE WAS A BIG KERFUFFLE OVER LEBANON WAS INCLUDED IN THE CEASE-FIRE.

THERE WAS AND THERE WASN'T.

WAS LEBANON INCLUDED IN THE CEASE-FIRE?

>> YEAH.

THIS WAS ONE OF THE CONDITIONS GIVEN BY THE IRANIAN DELEGATION BEFORE ARRIVING HERE.

WHAT BECAME A STICKING POINT WE HEARD IT FROM THE UNITED STATES VICE PRESIDENT.

YOU CAN'T SAY THE NEGOTIATIONS FELL APART BECAUSE OF THIS.

>> GOT IT.

OKAY.

HAVE A SIP OF YOUR WATER WHILE I ASK YOU THE LAST QUESTION.

ONE OF THE MOST POPULAR AND WELL KNOWN POLITICIANS IN PAKISTAN IS IN JAIL.

THERE SEEMS TO BE A STAND OFF BETWEEN HIM AND THE GENERAL.

IS THERE A WAY THAT CAN BE RESOLVED?

I AM HERE TO GIVE YOU MY STRATEGIC VIEWS ON WHAT IS GOING ON.

THE ROLE OF MILITARY DIPLOMACY WHAT OUR INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY IS DOING.

I OFTEN APPEAR ON MEDIA AND I DON'T COMMENT ON THE POLITICAL ISSUES.

THAT IS NOT MY AREA OF EXPERTISE.

>> LAST QUESTION, ONLY 30 SECONDS.

PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID THAT HE WANTS A GRAND BARGAIN, INCLUDING REINTEGRATING THE IRANIAN PEOPLE INTO THE GLOBAL ECONOMY.

IS THAT ON THE TABLE?

WHEN THE CONFLICT IS OVER, I THINK IN THE SUBSEQUENT PHASES, IRAN IS A VERY IMPORTANT COUNTRY IN THE REGION WITH A WEALTH OF RESOURCES AND GREAT CIVILIZATION AND PEOPLE THAT HAVE SHOWN RESOLVE AND A PAIN THRESHOLD THAT IS COMMENDABLE.

IF THERE ARE ISSUES BETWEEN IRAN AND OTHER COUNTRIES, THE FIRST STEP IS GET THOSE RESOLVED.

LATER THE INTEGRATION WITH THE INTERNATIONAL POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC AND FINANCIAL SYSTEM TAKES PLACE.

IT WOULD BE SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT FOR THE IRANIAN PEOPLE.

THE UNITED STATES AND RANGERS ARE BOTH CHOKING OFF THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

THE NEXT GUEST IS SOUNDING THE ALARM ABOUT THE GLOBAL ECONOMY AND NOTING HOW RUSSIA AND CHINA BENEFIT.

VICE PRESIDENT OF S & P GLOBAL.

>> THANK YOU AND WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

WE ARE NOW BLOCKADING THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

IRAN IS THINKING OF DOING IT IN THE PERSIAN GULF.

>> IT REMAINS THE LARGEST DISRUPTION OF WORLD ENERGY THAT EVER OCCURRED.

PEOPLE ARE CLOSING RESTAURANTS BECAUSE THEY CAN'T GET THE FUEL THEY NEED FOR HITTING.

IT IS STARTING TO BE FELT IN EUROPE.

WE ARE SEEING IT IN EUROPE AT THE GASOLINE PUMPS.

ONE AREA IS JET FUEL.

THAT IS GOING TO AFFECT TRAVEL.

>> YOU SAY THE BIGGEST WE HAVE EVER SEEN.

LOOK AT THE MARKETS.

THEY ARE NOT GOING TOTALLY NUTTERS.

WE ARE SEEING LESS IMPACT IN THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE THEY WENT FROM THE LARGEST IMPORTER OF WORLD TO THE LARGEST PRODUCER AND A MAJOR EXPORTER.

THERE IS A DIVIDED WORLD IF YOU LOOK AT THE FUTURES MARKET.

THAT IS WHERE YOU GET THAT $100 BARREL.

BEFORE IT BEGAN OIL WAS $60 A BARREL.

NOW WHAT IS ACTUALLY BEING SOLD IN ASIA, YOU GET PRICES LIKE $140 A BARREL COMPARED TO $60 BEFORE THE CRISIS.

IT IS AN UNEVEN IMPACT AROUND THE WORLD AND IN MARKETS THEMSELVES.

>> YOU SAID AT THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR WITH IRAN IT WOULD BE A NIGHTMARE SCENARIO IF THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ WAS CLOSED MORE THAN FOUR OR FIVE WEEKS.

>> IT SEEMS TO BE DAY BY DAY IF NEGOTIATIONS ARE HAPPENING OR NOT HAPPENING.

THE MIGHT THEIR SCENARIO IN TERMS OF OIL.

IN TERMS OF THE OIL MARKET, THIS IS 20% OF WORLD OIL AND LIQUIFIED NATURAL GAS.

CHECKS LIKE ALUMINUM, FERTILIZER AND HELIUM WHICH IS REQUIRED FOR THE MANUFACTURE OF SEMICONDUCTORS AND ALSO FOR MRI FINISHES.

THEY ARE MAJOR PLAYERS NOW IN THE WORLD ECONOMY.

THEY ARE EXPORTERS OF ANOTHER COMMODITY CALLED MONEY BECAUSE THEY HAVE THESE HUGE SOVEREIGN WEALTH FUNDS.

>> WHAT COULD THAT DO IF THE SOVEREIGN WEALTH FUNDS QUIT INVESTING?

>> I DON'T THINK THEY WILL.

YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT FUNDS WORTH TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS OR MORE THAN THAT.

BUT HOW MUCH OF THE INVESTMENT WILL BE SHIFTED BACK TO DOMESTIC REQUIRED TO REPAIR THE DAMAGE.

THIS IS NOT ONLY ABOUT THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ BEING CLOSED BUT THE MAJOR INFRASTRUCTURE SUPPORTING ALL THE INDUSTRIES BEING ATTACKED AS WELL.

>> YOU SAID A BIG CHANGE IS THAT THE UNITED STATES IS AN EXPORTER AND NET EXPORTER OF LIQUIFIED NATURAL GAS.

IS THERE A SILVER LINING FOR THE AMERICAN ECONOMY HERE?

>> I THINK OVERALL NOT.

I THINK OBVIOUSLY PRICES GO UP TEMPORARILY.

THAT BENEFITS THE SECTORS OF THE ECONOMY.

BUT YOU HAVE HIGHER GASOLINE PRICES.

THAT HITS LOWER INCOME PEOPLE THAT HAVE TO TRAVEL SOME DISTANCE TO WORK.

YOU WOULD PROBABLY SAY THAT IT KIND OF BALANCES OUT.

THERE WERE ALREADY A LOT OF INFLATIONARY PRESSURES BUILDING IN THE ECONOMY.

WHAT WILL THIS DO FOR OTHER ENERGY SOURCES LIKE RENEWABLES?

I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THE SECRET OF ENERGY SECURITY IS DIVERSIFICATION.

NOW I THINK THAT PEOPLE ARE DESCRIBING RENEWABLES, WIND AND SOLAR I KNOW ONE PROJECT THAT WOULD DMEND ON LIQUIFIED NATURAL GAS IN VIETNAM NOW SWITCHED TO SOLAR.

YOU KNOW, OVER 90% OF THE NEW ELECTRIC GENERATING CAPACITY INSTALLED LAST YEAR IN THE WORLD WAS WIND AND SOLAR.

HOW ABOUT CHINA?

HOW ARE THEY TRYING TO INFLUENCE THIS?

>> CHINA DEPENDS ON THE GULF FOR 45% OF ITS OIL IMPORTS.

CHINA HAS REPLACED THE UNITED STATES.

THE U. S. USED TO BE THE LARGEST IMPORTER OF OIL.

CHINA IS TODAY.

75% OF THEIR OIL IS IMPORTED AND A BIG PART FROM THE MIDDLE EAST.

CHINA HAS BEEN THE MAJOR RECIPIENT OF THE SANCTIONED IRANIAN OIL.

I THINK CHINA WANTS TO PORTRAY THEMSELVES AS A STABILIZER IN THE WORLD IN CONTRAST TO HOW THEY PORTRAY THE UNITED STATES AS UNPREDICTABLE.

THEY ALSO BENEFIT BECAUSE THEY ARE AT THE FOREFRONT OF RENEWABLES.

IN PARTICULAR, 80 TO 90% OF THE WORLD'S SOLAR PANELS COME FROM THEM.

CHINA BENEFITS FROM THAT.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT PETRO DOLLARS AT TIMES.

COULD THIS REDUCE THE USE OF THE U. S. DOLLAR AS THE CURRENCY AND MAYBE HELP CHINA?

>> THAT IS A BIG QUESTION THAT GOES BEYOND THIS CRISIS.

WILL THE DOLLAR RETAIN THERE ARE TWO COUNTRIES THAT WOULD LIKE TO END THAT.

ONE IS RUSSIA.

THE OTHER IS CHINA AND IRAN.

THE CHINESE WANT TO PUSH THEIR CURRENCY.

IRAN IS SAYING THE TANKERS THEY ARE ALLOWING TO GO THROUGH THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, YOU KNOW, WE NOW HAVE A BLOCKADE.

THEY WOULD BE PAID IN THE CHINESE CURRENCY.

THE QUESTION ABOUT THE DOLLAR, THE CHINESE WOULD LIKE TO DISPLACE THE ROLE OF THE DOLLAR AND DISPLACE THE ROLE OF THE U. S.

>> DO YOU THINK CHINA WILL SUPPORT IRAN MORE IF IRAN IS INSISTING THAT THE CHINESE CURRENCY BE USED?

I THINK THEY HAVE HAD A STRONG RELATIONSHIP WITH IRAN.

ONE QUESTION, YOU KNOW, WILL CHINA TRY TO PLAY A ROLE TO END THIS HOSTILITY.

>> YOU SAY CHINA IS ONE OF THE BENEFICIARIES.

THE OTHER SEEMS TO BE VLADIMIR PUTIN AND RUSSIA.

ARE THEY BENEFITTING FROM THIS SITUATION?

>> YES.

I SAW A CLIP OF A KREMLIN NEWS CONFERENCE WHERE VLADIMIR PUTIN LOOKED SO SMUGLY SELF CONFIDENT SAYING THAT YOU CAN COUNT ON RUSSIA AS A RELIABLE SUPPLIER OF OIL AND NATURAL GAS.

HE BENEFITS IF SANCTIONS ARE LIFTED OR THE OIL THEY DO GET OUT IS SOLD AT HIGHER PRICES.

HE BENEFITS BECAUSE IT HELPS TO FUND HIS WAR.

IT RAISES QUESTIONS IF THE SHORTAGES PERSIST WILL THE SANCTIONS ABOUT NOT SUPPORTING RUSSIAN ENERGY BE SELFERED OR PUSHED BACK?

THE UKRAINIANS KNOW THAT AND ARE LOBBING MISSILES AND DRONES TO IMPEDE THE EXPORT OF RUSSIAN OIL AND GAS.

>> HOW WILL THAT AFFECT THE WAR IN UKRAINE?

>> FIRST IT HAS TAKEN ATTENTION AWAY FROM THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

THE OTHER SIDE OF IT, NO COUNTRY NO KNOW BETTER HOW TO FIGHT DRONE WARFARE THAN UKRAINE.

THERE IS VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY MAKING DEALS WITH SAUDIS AND OTHER OTHERS TO PROVIDE THEM WITH ANTI-DRONE IES.

RUSSIA, PUTIN CAN'T STOP HIMSELF.

YOU LOOK AT IT AND SAY WHAT DOES HE GAIN FROM THIS.

HE MADE RUSSIA A CLIENT STATE.

BUT THE WAR GRINDS ON.

>> IF THE U. S. LIFTS SANCTIONS ON RUSSIAN OIL, DOESN'T THAT HELP HIS WAR IN UKRAINE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

YOU KNOW, RIGHT NOW HE NEEDS TO SHIP EVERYTHING THROUGH THE SHADOW FLEET.

THE U. S. HAD A WAIVER.

I THINK THE WAIVER EXPIRES ON SATURDAY.

WE ARE GOING TO SEE THE WORLD NEEDS TO MAKE UP THE MISSING SUPPLIES.

THE OTHER THING, PEOPLE AT LEAST IN THE U. S. SORT OF STOPPED TO FOCUS ON THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

THE EUROPEANS ARE THINKING THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT ATTITUDE TOWARDS RUSSIA THAN WASHINGTON DOES.

>> EVEN IF TRAFFIC RESUMES THROUGH THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, AND FROM THE PERSIAN GULF WHICH MAY ALSO BE AFFECTED HERE.

HOW IS THIS SITUATION GOING TO ALTER WHAT YOU CALL THE NEW ENERGY MAP?

>> THE WORLD WILL BE DIFFERENT WHEN THIS IS OVER.

HOW DIFFERENT DEPENDS ON HOW IT WILL END.

FIRST OF ALL, IT WILL TAKE MONTHS TO UNSNARL ALL OF THE DISRUPTION OF SUPPLY CHAINS.

IT MIGHT TAKE YEARS IF NOT MONTHS TO REPAIR THE EQUIPMENT AND IT WILL BE THE SENSE OF WHAT SENSE OF SECURITY IS THERE IN THE REGION.

I THINK THAT A LOT DEPENDS ON HOW IT ENDS.

YOU KNOW, YOU STARTED BY TALKING ABOUT THE NIGHTMARE SCENARIO.

THERE WILL BE A RETHINK.

THE CRITICAL QUESTION DOES THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ FUNCTION AS AN INTERNATIONAL WATER WAY OR DOES IT FUNCTION AS AN IRANIAN CANAL WHERE THEY COLLECT THE TOWLES.

I CAN TELL YOU FOR THEM IT WOULD BE UNACCEPTABLE TO HAVE TO DEPEND ON PERMISSION THAT IRAN WHERE THE FUNDING THEY PAY FOR BOTH GOES TO FUND THE IRANIAN IRGC.

THAT IS WHAT THE SYSTEM THE IRANIANS TRIED TO IMPOSE.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT THE GULF STATES AND SAUDI ARABIA WILL EVENTUALLY WORK WITH THE UNITED STATES TO MAKE SURE THAT THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ IS A FREE PASSAGEWAY.

>> IF YOU LOOK AT THE WORLD'S INTERESTS, ASIA AND EUROPE'S INTERESTS YOU WOULD SAY YES.

IT IS SO MUCH IN THEIR INTEREST.

OTHERWISE THEY ARE DOMINATED BY IRAN ENDS UP AS A DOMINANT POWER.

IRAN MAY HAVE LOST WEAPONS AND MAY HAVE BEEN PUSHED BACK IN THE NUCLEAR CAPABILITY, AND THINGS CAN CHANGE IN A DAY OR TWO, BUT AT THIS POINT THEY HAVE WON SOMETHING IMPORTANT, CONTROL OF THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT MARITIME CHOKE POINT IN THE WORLD.

>> A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK OF YOU AS AN ENERGY EXPERT, AND I THINK OF YOU AS A HISTORIAN.

WHAT COULD HAVE GONE DIFFERENTLY AFTER AUGUST 1978 SO THAT THE IRANIAN AND PERSIAN PEOPLE COULD HAVE REMAINED FRIENDLY WITH THE UNITED STATES?

IN THERE WAS THE REVOLUTION AND YOU HAD A BROAD COALITION.

THEN THE ZEALOTS, IN EFFECT IT WAS A SECOND REVOLUTION.

IF THERE HADN'T BEEN A SECOND REVOLUTION.

A LOT OF ACCIDENTS AND MISTAKES.

IF THE SHAW WASN'T ADMITTED TO THE UNITED STATES TO BE TREATED FOR HIS CANCER, THE SHAW OF IRAN.

WOULD THERE HAVE BEEN A DIFFERENCE BALANCE OF POWER?

THE SHAW, PEOPLE CRITICIZED HIM.

HE WAS AN AUTOCRAT AND HAD SECRET POLICE BUT NOTHING ON THE SCALE AND BRUTALITY OF THE CURRENT REGIME SHOOTING TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IN THE STREETS.

IRAN WAS POISED TO BE A SIGNIFICANT ECONOMIC POWER.

IRANIAN STUDENTS WITH Ph.

D. s IN SCIENCE AND AROUND THE WORLD.

THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN ON A DIFFERENT VECTOR.

IRAN COULD HAVE BEEN A MAJOR ECONOMIC POWER LIKE WE HAVE SEEN THE ARAB GULF COUNTRIES OF SAUDI ARABIA.

BUT THEY WENT ON A DIFFERENT COURSE.

IT IS SOMETHING WE HAVE SEEN.

I THINK THAT IT MAY BE ONE OF THE SURPRISES HERE.

PEOPLE DID NOT UNDERSTAND THE EXTENT AND THE SCALE OF THE IRANIAN ARSENAL OF WEAPONS.

MUCH HAS BEEN DEGRADED, BUT MUCH REMAINS.

>> DAN YERGIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US AGAIN.

I APPRECIATE IT.

>> AND FINALLY, A .

0008% CHANCE A FRENCHMAN BEAT THE ODDS WINNING A RAFFLE OF A LIFETIME TAKING HOME A PICASSO WORTH MORE THAN $1 MILLION FOR JUST A $100 EURO RAFFLE TICKET.

HE SAID HE HAD NEARLY FORGOTTEN ABOUT THE CONTEST UNTIL HE WAS CALLED DURING THE DRAW AND PUT ON FACETIME FOR THE CROWD.

MONEY RAISED GOES TO ALZHEIMER'S RESEARCH.

WE WILL FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT.

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THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.