>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THERE'S RISK ASSOCIATED WITH EVERY SINGLE ACTION OR INACTION THAT THE LEADERSHIP IN THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL TAKES.

>> THE UNITED STATES ON THE EDGE OF WAR WITH IRAN.

I ASK FORMER CHAIR OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF MIKE ALLEN WHAT ARE THE CALCULATIONS AND THE ENDGAME.

>> >>> A CALL FOR PEACE FROM AND IRAN NOBLER YET.

>>> IT WAS IN THIS ROOM 21 YEARS AGO THAT I DEVELOPED THE FIRST INKLINGS OF POLITICAL AWARENESS.

>> A TIME WHEN A DIFFERENT FUTURE SEEMED POSSIBLE.

MY DEEPLY PERSONAL REPORTING TRIP BACK TO THE HOME I GREW UP IN ANY RON.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> THESE ARE MEN THAT OWN GLOBAL COMMUNICATION PLATFORMS.

THOSE GLOBAL COMMUNICATION PLATFORMS ARE NOW ALIGNED TO THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

>> INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST CAROLE CADWALLADR TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN MY SHE HAS JOINED THE -- COINED THE TERM THE "BROLIGARCHY" AND HOW TO SURVIVE IT.

>>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS FAMILY CHARITABLE TRUST, MARK J. BLECHNER, FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, SETON J. MELVIN , PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND , CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN -- COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS , AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON .

ISRAEL ATTACKS ON HE RAN -- IRAN AND ATTACKS ON HAVE BROUGHT THE U.S. TO THE EDGE OF WAR WITH THE MIDDLE EAST.

PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID HE WILL MAKE THE DECISION IN TWO WEEKS AND THERE IS STILL TIME TO COME TO A DEAL.

IT IS EXPOSING DIVISIONS IN THE CABINET AND THE MAGA MOVEMENT.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER TOLD ME THEY WILL NOT BACK DOWN.

>> IF THE AMERICANS DECIDE TO GET INVOLVED MILITARILY, WE HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO RETALIATE WHEREVER WE FIND THE TARGETS NECESSARY TO BE ACTED UPON.

THAT IS CLEAR AND SIMPLE.

WE ARE ACTING IN SELF-DEFENSE.

IF ANOTHER COUNTRY JOINS THE FIGHT, THAT IS ANOTHER INSTANCE FOR OUR SELF-DEFENSE.

YOU DO NOT EXPECT IRAN TO NOT USE ITS RIGHT OF SELF-DEFENSE BASED ON ARTICLE 51 OF THE U.N. CHARTER.

>> THE DEPUTY FOREIGN MINISTER ALSO TOLD ME THEY HAD FULLY ASSUMED THEY WERE CONTINUING THE NEGOTIATIONS AS PLANNED FOR JUNE 15.

TWO DAYS EARLIER ISRAEL STARTED THE WAR.

WHATEVER THE U.S.

DECIDES, A KEY QUESTION REMAINS.

DOES IT SHARE THE SAME GOALS AS ISRAEL.

PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU SAID THE OBJECTIVE IS TO REMOVE THE NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

TALK OF A REGIME CHANGE HAS BEEN GROWING.

WHETHER THEY CAN PROTEST AT ALL IS UNCERTAIN BECAUSE CIVILIANS HAVE BEEN ORDERED TO EVACUATE THEIR HOMES.

AS FORMER CHAIR OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF, ADMIRAL MIKE MULLEN HAS AN INSIDERS VIEW OF WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND HE JOINS US FROM CALIFORNIA.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> I REMEMBER WHEN YOU ARE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS, THERE WERE SEVERAL DISCUSSIONS WE HAD ABOUT PRECISELY THIS ISSUE.

WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN WITH THE RON AND WOULD IT BECOME LIKE WHAT THE AMERICANS DID WITH IRAQ WITH THE NONEXISTENT WMD PROGRAM AND IN THIS CASE NO EVIDENCE ANY MOVE HAS BEEN MADE TOWARD MILITARIZING THEIR NUCLEAR CAPABILITY.

ADMIRAL MULLEN, JUST GIVE ME YOUR TAKE ON WHAT IS HAPPENING AND HOW WE GOT HERE.

>> I THINK A REAL INFLECTION POINT WAS OCTOBER 7.

ONE OF THE THINGS I FELT AS A RESULT OF THAT WAS WE REALLY NEEDED TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE.

WE HAVE BEEN ENGAGED OR NOT ENGAGED, CERTAINLY THREATENED BY IRAN AND THE MIDDLE EAST FOR 45 YEARS.

I REALLY DID NOT HAVE A SPECIFIC SET OF OPTIONS TO DO THAT BUT I THINK THEY NEEDED TO BE PRESSED.

WE JUST CAN'T DO THIS FOR ANOTHER SEVERAL DECADES.

LACKING SOME CHANGE THEIR IT LOOKED LIKE IT WOULD CONTINUE.

IN ONE WAY I AM NOT SURPRISED WE ARE HERE.

CERTAINLY IT SEEMS TO ME THAT WITH THE WAY ISRAEL HAS MOVED ON GAZA, HEZBOLLAH, AND BY ALL REPORTS, IRAN ITSELF IS GREATLY DIMINISHED IN TERMS OF ITS MILITARY CAPABILITY AND LEADERSHIP AS A RESULT OF THESE RECENT STRIKES.

THEY ARE AS WEAK AS THEY HAVE BEEN SINCE 1979, I THINK.

AND VERY VULNERABLE.

I EXPECT, I DO NOT KNOW BUT I EXPECT PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU SAW THE OPPORTUNITY AND IS TRYING TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT.

WHAT I WORRY ABOUT IS SOMETHING WE HAVE ALL WORRIED ABOUT WHICH IS A WIDER WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

I THINK THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS IT WITHIN HIS GRASP, AND PROBABLY THE ONLY PERSON THAT CAN SOMEHOW CONTAIN ISRAEL BEFORE THAT KIND OF WAR BREAKS OUT.

>> SO WHAT IS A WIDER WAR THAT YOU THINK THE PRESIDENT SHOULD TRY TO PREEMPT AND MAKE IT NOT HAPPEN?

>> I THINK IT IS AS WE'VE NOW HURT BECAUSE OF THE RECENT STRIKES, THE SUPREME LEADER HAS TALKED ABOUT HITTING AMERICAN TARGETS.

WE HAVE BASES THROUGHOUT THE MIDDLE EAST, CERTAINLY WELL WITHIN RANGE OF THE IRANIAN MISSILE FORCES.

THAT WOULD BE A BIG STEP IN THAT DIRECTION.

IF SOMEHOW AS A RESULT OF THAT YOU BROUGHT IN OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE MIDDLE EAST, WHETHER IT BE THE UAE OR SAUDI ARABIA OR OTHER COUNTRIES IN THAT REGION, THAT IS HOW IT SPREADS.

THEN IT BECOMES INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT TO FIGURE OUT HOW IT WILL STOP, HOW THE ESCALATION STOPS WHICH IS WHAT THE WORRY IS IF WE GOT INTO SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

>> ADMIRAL MULLEN, YOU ARE AWARE, AND I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU HAVE MORE INSIGHT OR CONTEXT, BUT THE CUP IS GOOD PUBLIC CONVERSATION INSIDE THE UNITED STATES IS ABOUT USING ONE PIECE OF WEAPONRY.

THAT IS THE SO-CALLED MASSIVE ORDNANCE PENETRATOR, USING AMERICAN BOMBERS TO DELIVER IT SPECIFICALLY TO TARGET THE IRANIAN NUCLEAR SITE WHICH IS BURIED DEEP UNDER HIM OUT AND THERE.

-- A MOUNTAIN THERE.

TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK AN AMERICAN ACTION WOULD LOOK LIKE IF IT JOINED.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS HISTORICALLY FOR ME IS WHEN WE HAVE TAKEN ACTION IN THE PAST, CHRISTIANE, TO DEGRADE OR EVEN TRY TO DESTROY AND ELIMINATE THE VARIOUS NUCLEAR FACILITIES, IT HAS AMAZED ME HOW QUICKLY IRAN HAS RECONSTRUCTED AND RECOVERED FROM THOSE ATTACKS.

IN A COUPLE OF CASES PRETTY DEVASTATING ATTACKS.

SO THE PROSPECT OF ELIMINATION IS ONE I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SOMEWHAT CONCERNED ABOUT, WHETHER WE COULD DO THAT.

I THINK IT IS WIDELY REPORTED THAT THE SECOND ENRICHMENT FACILITY IS BURIED EXCEPTIONALLY DEEP.

THERE HAS BEEN I THINK TOO MUCH CERTAINTY IN THE PUBLIC DISCUSSION THAT THIS 30,000 POUND BOMB COULD ACTUALLY ELIMINATE IT.

IT IS VERY, VERY DEEPLY BURIED.

TENS OF METERS IF NOT HUNDREDS OF METERS.

I AM NOT EVEN SURE THAT IF WE USED THAT IT WOULD DESTROY IT.

IT CERTAINLY COULD POSSIBLY DAMAGE IT.

BUT THE IDEA OF ELIMINATING IT AND DESTROYING IT TO A POINT WHERE IT WOULD NOT BE REBUILT, I DO NOT THINK THAT IS IN THE CARDS.

THAT SAID, IF WE HIT THEM AND THE IRANIAN LEADERSHIP IS SAYS THAT'S ENOUGH, THAT IS ANOTHER STEP.

WE ARE VERY MUCH ON THE EDGE OF TAKING THAT KIND OF ACTION WHEN YOU LISTEN TO PRESIDENT TRUMP AND CERTAINLY LISTEN TO THE LEADERSHIP, PARTICULARLY THE DEFENSE MINISTER TALKING ABOUT DECAPITATING.

THIS IS ALL VERY STRONG INDICATORS WE ARE VERY CLOSE TO A WIDER WAR BREAKING OUT.

>> YOU MENTIONED THE EXTENT OF DAMAGE THAT COULD BE DONE.

I SPOKE TO THE FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER, HE WAS ALSO A FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER AND HEAD OF THE ISRAELI MINISTRY.

THIS WAS JUST EARLIER THIS WEEK.

HE TOLD ME THAT HE DID NOT BELIEVE ISRAEL COULD DAMAGE THE NUCLEAR PROGRAM BY MORE THAN SEVERAL WEEKS OR EVEN A MONTH OR SO SETBACK.

EVEN WITH THE U.S.

IT MIGHT NOT BE POSSIBLE TO DAMAGE IT IN A SIGNIFICANT ENOUGH WAY.

YOU HAVE LAID OUT THE PRESIDENT OF IRAN REBUILDING STUFF THAT GETS DAMAGED.

SO WHAT IS THE CONSEQUENCE, DO YOU THINK?

AND THE POINT OF THE U.S.

JOINING IF THE OUTCOME IS NOT CERTAIN.

THEY HAVE AIR SUPERIORITY OR SUPREMACY.

>> I UNDERSTAND.

IN A WAR OFTEN TIMES THE OUTCOME IS NOT CERTAIN.

I THINK IT WILL REMAIN THAT WAY PARTICULARLY WITH THIS PARTICULAR TARGET SET AND WITH THE LEADERSHIP.

WHAT I HAVE SEEN HAPPEN SO FAR IS A DETERMINATION TO DEFEND THEMSELVES AND RESPOND.

I AGREE WITH THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER THAT IT IS NOT CERTAIN.

I THINK THERE'S AN OPEN QUESTION TO HOW LONG IT WOULD TAKE THEM TO RECONSTITUTE.

THE DEBATE RIGHT NOW AS THEY ARE WEEKS OR MONTHS AWAY.

I THINK THEY ARE PROBABLY TWO OR THREE YEARS AWAY FROM A SOPHISTICATED WEAPON, BUT TO HAVE A ROUGHSHOD WEAPON THEY COULD TRANSPORT IN SOMEHOW, IT IS POSSIBLE WITHIN MONTHS.

THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN A KEY ISSUE.

IT'S NOT JUST HAVING THE URANIUM.

IT IS HOW DO YOU WEAPON EYES THAT.

IT COULD BE DONE RELATIVELY QUICKLY.

I THINK THAT IS WHAT WE ARE DEALING WITH.

SO HOW DO YOU HAVE ENOUGH IMPACT EITHER THROUGH DIPLOMACY OR THROUGH TARGETING THEM AT THESE WEAPONS TO CONVINCE IRAN TO GIVE UP THEIR NUCLEAR CAPABILITY.

I THINK THAT IS THE ESSENCE.

I DO NOT INC. WE KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT.

THAT IS THE RISK THAT IS INHERENT IN TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE RIGHT COURSE OF ACTION IS.

WHAT THE IRANIAN LEADERSHIP WILL DO.

>> SO THE QUESTION THEN, IS THE RACECOURSE -- RISK WORTH THE BENEFIT OR DOES IT OUTWEIGH THE BENEFIT.

IF YOU ARE IN THE ROOM WHICH YOU HAVE BEEN IN THE PAST, WHAT WOULD YOU BE ADVISING THE PRESIDENT ABOUT THIS?

WHAT OPTIONS WOULD YOU BE TELLING HIM OR ADVISING HIM?

>> I THINK A LOT OF THEM HAVE BEEN VERY SPECIFICALLY DISCUSSED EVEN PUBLICLY.

CERTAINLY AS THE PRESIDENT HAS LAID OUT IN THE LAST TWO DAYS, OR MAYBE IT WAS YESTERDAY, THE ULTIMATE ULTIMATUM.

OBVIOUSLY I THINK THAT MEANS TO ME THAT THE UNITED STATES IS CERTAINLY PREPARED TO ACT, WHETHER HE WILL MAKE THAT FINAL DECISION OR NOT I'M NOT SURE.

I'M SURE THEY HAVE LAID OUT THE OPTIONS.

YOU SAW LAST WEEK OR MAYBE EARLIER THIS WEEK THE UNITED STATES STARTED TO MOVE PEOPLE OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST.

THAT IS ALL PRECURSOR WORK TO A POSSIBLE ATTACK AND EXPANSION.

THE OTHER THING IS BEING ON THE OUTSIDE I DON'T HAVE THE INTELLIGENCE.

I DO NOT HAVE SPECIFIC ENOUGH INFORMATION TO BE ABLE TO SAY THIS IS THE RECOMMENDATION I WOULD MAKE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.

I THINK THE OPTIONS ARE FAIRLY LIMITED IN TERMS OF HOW TO ADDRESS THIS WHETHER WE CAN GET IRAN BACK TO THE TABLE TO THE POINT WHERE THEY WILL BE THE WILLING TO ELIMINATE THEIR NUCLEAR CAPABILITY OR WE OR ISRAEL TRY TO TAKE IT OUT.

>> BENJAMIN NETANYAHU HAS BEEN TRYING TO DO THIS FOR DECADES .

SUCCESSIVE AMERICAN PRESIDENTS HAVE SAID NO.

NOT ONLY THAT THEY HAVE NOT SOLD OR GIVEN OR WHATEVER THEY DO, THIS BIG BOMB OR THE PLANE TO ISRAEL PRECISELY BECAUSE THEY DID NOT WANT THEM TO DO THAT.

NOW REPORTING SUGGESTS THAT ISRAEL IS CALLING THE SHOTS.

REPORTING FROM INSIDE ISRAEL AND JOURNALISTS OUTSIDE THAT PU ALONG BY ISRAEL TO AN EXTENT.

IT IS CLEAR THAT HE ALLOWED ISRAEL TO TAKE ANY ACTION AGAINST THE NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT THIS FOREIGN-POLICY IS BEING LED BY A FOREIGN COUNTRY AND NOT BY THE UNITED STATES AND DRAGGING THE UNITED STATES IN?

>> ISRAEL OBVIOUSLY HAS A LEVEL OF INDEPENDENCE WITH ITS LEADERSHIP THAT CAN MAKE THESE DECISIONS AND MOVE.

I DO THINK THE UNITED STATES AND PARTICULARLY PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS THE WHEREWITHAL TO CONSTRAIN HIM.

THE QUESTION IS WILL HE.

I HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT WHO KNEW WHAT BEFORE ISRAEL INITIATED THIS MOST RECENT SET OF ATTACKS .

ONE OF THE AREAS THAT IS INSTRUCTIVE TO ME, CHRISTIANE, BACK IN MY TIME THERE WERE CERTAINLY THREATS THAT ISRAEL WOULD DO THIS.

NETANYAHU WAS THERE AS WELL.

THE ARMED FORCES WERE NOT OVERLY SUPPORTIVE AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME.

IT IS VERY CLEAR TO ME NOW THAT THEY ARE.

I THINK THIS IS POST OCTOBER 7.

IT'S AN OPPORTUNITY.

THEY HAVE GOT TO REESTABLISH THE SECURITY OF THEIR NATION FOR THEIR PEOPLE.

IN THAT REGARD I THINK THE IDF AND POLITICAL LEADERSHIP ARE ON THE SAME PAGE.

I THINK THAT IS THE CHALLENGE THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS.

IT CERTAINLY APPEARS TO ME THREADING THE NEEDLE WHICH MEANS CAN WE SUPPORT THEM, CAN WE CALL THEM OFF AT THE RIGHT MOMENT AND CAN WE DO THIS WITHOUT IT BREAKING INTO A WIDER WAR THAT WOULD MORE DEEPLY INVOLVE THE MIDDLE EAST.

LISTENING TO PRESIDENT TRUMP FOR SOME TIME RIGHT NOW, IT'S VERY CLEAR HE IS NOT GOING TO GET INTO A DEEP, LONG, FOREVER WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST, I DON'T EVEN THINK FOR THIS.

SO HOW DO YOU THREAD THE NEEDLE.

THERE'S RISKS ASSOCIATED WITH EVERY SINGLE ACTION OR INACTION THAT THE LEADERSHIP IN THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL TAKES.

>> FORMER CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS, ADMIRAL MULLEN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AMID THIS INTENSE CONFLICT AND SEEMINGLY DISTANT DISCIPLINE AS HE.

IT IS PRESIDENT TRUMP THAT WALKED AWAY FROM THE NUCLEAR DEAL THAT WILL -- IN 28 TEEN -- 2016 THAT WAS MEANT TO CURB NUCLEAR AMBITIONS.

I SPOKE TO THEN FOREIGN MINISTER JAVAD ZARIF ABOUT WHAT IT TOOK TO REACH THE AGREEMENT.

DID YOU MAKE HISTORY TODAY?

>> I HOPE SO.

HISTORY IS MADE BY GOOD DECISIONS THAT ARE IMPLEMENTED.

I THINK WE ADOPTED A DECISION THAT IS GOOD FOR ALL.

MORE IMPORTANTLY THAN THAT IF YOU WANT TO MAKE HISTORY TODAY, THIS HAS TO BE THE FOUNDATION, NOT THE CEILING FOR BUILDING ON SOMETHING THAT CAN IN FACT BREAK A SEVERAL-YEAR-OLD MISPERCEPTION , UNNECESSARY CRISIS SO WE CAN DEAL WITH THE REAL CRISES THAT ARE AFFECTING ALL OF US.

>> YOU HAVE ALWAYS CALLED THE UNITED STATES THE GREAT SATAN.

NOW YOU ARE MAKING A DEAL.

SOME ARE ALREADY SAYING IT IS A SURRENDER.

HOW ARE YOU SELL IT BACK HOME?

>> FIRST OF ALL, WE HAVE AN AGREEMENT.

IT IS NOT WITH THE UNITED STATES, BUT THE UNITED STATES IS AN IMPORTANT PART OF THIS PROCESS.

IT IS IN OUR VIEW A GOOD AGREEMENT.

ANY AGREEMENT INCLUDES COMPROMISE.

WE HAVE ACCEPTED SOME LIMITATIONS AND AND AND RECIPROCATION FOR OUR ACCEPTANCE OF THOSE LIMITATIONS WE RECEIVED A LOT OF BENEFIT.

NEITHER SIDE WAS PREPARED TO PROVIDE THE FLEXIBILITY THAT HAS NOW LED US TO THIS AGREEMENT.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE FACT THAT NOW IRAN HAS A NUCLEAR PROGRAM AND R&D PROGRAM.

IT CAN BE PEACEFUL BECAUSE IT WAS ALWAYS PEACEFUL.

TWO YEARS AGO PEOPLE THOUGHT IT WOULD NEVER BE ACCEPTED BY ANY OF THE MAJOR POWERS.

NOW I AM HAPPY THAT THESE PEOPLE HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THE OLD WAY DID NOT WORK.

IT HAS PRODUCED NOTHING.

TWO YEARS OF DIPLOMACY HAS PRODUCED AN AGREEMENT.

>> WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THOSE THAT WILL TAKE WHAT YOU JUST TOLD ME ABOUT ALL YOU HAVE GAINED UNDER THE AGREEMENT AND THEY WILL SAY IT'S ONLY 10 YEARS AND THEY CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT.

SURE THEY WILL GO FOR THE AGREEMENT.

>> THE FACT IS THAT IF PEOPLE ARE WORRIED ABOUT IRAN'S NUCLEAR AMBITIONS IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN PEACEFUL.

LAST YEAR WAS PEACEFUL.

10 YEARS AGO IT WAS PEACEFUL, 10 YEARS FROM NOW WILL BE PEACEFUL.

IRAN'S INTEREST IN MAINTAINING A NUCLEAR WEAPON FREE REGION IS PARAMOUNT.

WE BELIEVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS DO NOT AUGMENT OUR SECURITY.

THAT IS A VERY SERIOUS ANALYSIS FOUNDED IN RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.

DON'T FORGET WE WERE THE VICTIMS OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS DURING THE IRAN- IRAQ WAR.

WE HAVE THE CAPABILITY TO DO THEM BUT WE NEVER DID.

THESE ARE PRINCIPLES ON WHICH WE OPERATE.

IF THEY WANT TO CLOSE FOUR PATHWAYS TO A BOMB OR 40, THEY CAN CLOSE THE MALL BECAUSE WE DO NOT WANT THE PATHWAY.

>> THERE ARE TALKS TAKING PLACE IN EUROPE BETWEEN EUROPEAN LEADERS AND IRANIANS ALSO IN CONSULTATION WITH UNITED STATES TO SEE IF THERE IS ANY LAST- DITCH ABILITY TO AVERT A FULL- SCALE WAR AND GET IRAN TO MOVE TOWARDS LIMITING ITS NUCLEAR AMBITIONS.

FOR SO MANY PEOPLE IN IRAN IS DOMINATED BY FEAR OF ISRAELI STRIKES.

A GROUP OF INMATES ARE PETITIONING FOR THE RELEASE OF NONVIOLENT PRISONERS DURING WARTIME.

IN A LETTER TO THE JUDICIARY, DETAINEES LIKE THE HUSBAND OF A PROMINENT HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER SAYS, QUOTE, THIS PRISON AND MANY ACROSS THE COUNTRY LIKE FACILITIES TO PROTECT PRISONERS LIVES AGAINST MISSILE ATTACKS, DRONE STRIKES AND FIGHTER JET BOMBARDMENTS.

MEANTIME A NOBEL PEACE LAUREATE WHO HAS SPENT MUCH OF THE PAST TWO DECADES INSIDE IS APPEALING TO DONALD TRUMP WHO HIMSELF WANTS A NOBEL PEACE PRIZE TO STOP THE WAR.

SHE SENT US AN EXCLUSIVE VIDEO FROM HER SHELTER.

>> THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL KEY JUNCTURES IN THE PAST DECADES WHEN THE PEOPLE OF IRAN WERE HOPEFUL FOR REAL CHANGE.

I SAW THIS MYSELF CLOSE AND VERY PERSONAL WHEN I RETURNED TO REPORT AFTER THE ELECTION OF A REFORMIST PRESIDENT NEARLY 30 YEARS AGO.

TODAY WE SEE THAT EXIT ROADS BLOCKED WITH PEOPLE FLEEING.

IT IS JARRING TO SEE HOW MUCH PEOPLE INCLUDING MY OWN FAMILY MEMBERS WANTED A DIFFERENT FUTURE AND THOUGHT ONE WAS POSSIBLE.

EVERYWHERE I GO I AM AN OBJECT OF CURIOSITY FOR THESE YOUNG PEOPLE.

THEY ARE EAGER TO ASK QUESTIONS AND TELL ME ALL ABOUT THE FREEDOM FIGHT.

I AM STUNNED BY THE SYMMETRY.

JUST A GENERATION AGO THERE WAS ANOTHER YOUTH MOVEMENT.

THE ONE THAT SPARKED A REVOLUTION, FORCING THE SHOT OF IRAN OUT AND BRINGING THE AYATOLLAH IN.

A GENERATION AFTER THE REVOLUTION, THESE STUDENTS ARE TELLING ME THEY WANT EVERYTHING.

REAL DEMOCRACY, THE RIGHT TO HAVE FUN, AND EVEN FRIENDLY RELATIONS WITH THE UNITED STATES.

FOR ME, THE STRUGGLE IS ESPECIALLY PERSONAL BECAUSE I WAS THEIR AGE WHEN THE REVOLUTION HAPPENED.

IN 1979 I WAS LIVING A CAREFREE LIFE TAKING ALL THE PERSONAL FREEDOMS FOR GRANTED WHEN I WAS A GIRL.

THIS WAS MY HOUSE.

THIS USED TO BE THE BACK WAY WE CAME IN.

IT IS NOW A CHICKEN COOP.

THIS WAS THE BACKYARD.

THE REVOLUTIONARY COURTS TOOK CUSTODY OF MY HOUSE AFTER MY FAMILY LEFT THE COUNTRY IN 1980.

ONLY RECENTLY WE WERE ABLE TO RECLAIM IT.

WE HAVE A FAMILY HERE WHO IS CARETAKING SO IT DOES NOT GET EXPROPRIATED SO PEOPLE DO NOT THINK IT IS EMPTY.

IT WAS A VERY BEAUTIFUL HOUSE.

NOT GRAND, BUT BEAUTIFULLY DECORATED.

YOU CANNOT TELL THAT AT ALL NOW.

EVERYTHING NOW IS JUST A SHELL.

IT IS JUST ALL CRUMBLING.

AFTER THE REVOLUTION OUR HOUSE WAS USED TO SHELTER FAMILIES, REFUGEES THAT WERE FLEEING THE WAR.

THIS USED TO BE OUR LIVING ROOM.

THIS ROOM FOR ME IS KIND OF SIGNIFICANT BECAUSE IT WAS HERE 21 YEARS AGO THAT MY FATHER WAS SITTING IN THAT CORNER AND I WAS STANDING HERE.

ALL OF THE SUDDEN HE SAID, LIFE AS WE USED TO KNOW IT IS GOING TO COME TO AN END BECAUSE THE REVOLUTION IS GOING TO HAPPEN AND IT WILL BE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

IT WAS AT THIS PRECISE MOMENT IN THIS ROOM 21 YEARS AGO THAT I DEVELOPED THE FIRST INKLINGS OF POLITICAL AWARENESS.

THIS IS WHERE MY LIFE CHANGED.

THIS WAS A LITTLE OUTDOOR PATIO WHERE WE WOULD HAVE PARTIES AT NIGHT.

MY PARENTS WOULD GIVE DINNER PARTIES AND THERE WOULD BE LIGHTS.

THERE ARE A LOT OF TREES THAT HAVE BEEN CUT DOWN.

IT WAS VERY BEAUTIFUL.

THIS WAS MY ROOM.

IT IS CLEARLY NOW A WOODSHED.

IT IS SAD REMEMBERING WHAT IT USED TO BE LIKE.

SAD FOR ME AND FOR MY FAMILY.

MY COUSIN.

WE CAN TAKE IT OFF WHEN WE ARE BEHIND THE WALLS.

AND MY FATHER.

HI, DADDY.

HOW ARE YOU?

DUCKING UNDERNEATH THE LAUNDRY.

>> NICE TO SEE YOU.

>> WE HAVE BEEN TOURING THE HOUSE AND TAKING PICTURES.

>> IT IS NOT A HOUSE.

IT IS A RUIN.

>> MY FATHER IS 85 YEARS OLD.

HE AND MY MOTHER LIVE IN LONDON BUT HE COMES BACK SEVERAL TIMES A YEAR.

MY COUSIN AND THE REST OF MY FAMILY LIVE IN TEHRAN.

DO YOU REMEMBER 20 YEARS AGO THE SUMMER OF 1978 TELLING ME THAT IT WAS ALL GOING TO CHANGE.

WE WERE SITTING IN THE LOUNGE.

>> I KNEW THAT SOMETHING WOULD HAPPEN.

>> CAN YOU REMEMBER WHAT YOU WERE FEELING?

>> IT WAS ALL WORRY ABOUT THE FAMILY.

WHAT THEY WILL BECOME.

WHEN WE STAY HERE, GO ABROAD.

I WAS PERPLEXED.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK WOULD HAVE HAPPENED TO ME IF I STAYED HERE?

I WENT TO UNIVERSITY ABROAD.

I WANTED TO BE A JOURNALIST.

WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF I HAD STAYED?

>> I CAN'T SEE THAT.

YOU WOULD NOT BE THE SAME LEVEL YOU ARE NOW.

YOU WOULD NOT HAVE THE FREE ACTIVITY.

BEING A WOMAN.

>> AS A WOMAN WE ARE NOT REALLY EQUAL WITH MEN NOW.

THAT WAS NOT WHAT I WANTED.

>> MY COUSIN SUPPORTED THE AYATOLLAH.

ON TELEVISION IT LOOKED LIKE THE REVOLUTION WAS ONLY POPULAR AMONG THE YOUNG RELIGIOUS RADICALS LIKE THE STUDENTS WHO TOOK THE AMERICANS HOSTAGES.

IN FACT, DISCONTENT WITH THE REPRESSIVE REGIME RAN DEEP.

THE MASSIVE TRADITIONAL RELIGIOUS CLASS RESENTED HIS EFFORTS TO MODERNIZE IRAN.

THEY SAW HIM AS AMERICA'S PUPPET.

MANY IN THE MIDDLE CLASS, PEOPLE LIKE MY COUSIN WANTED DEMOCRACY RATHER THAN MONARCHY.

WHEN THE REVOLUTION HAPPENED, MY COUSIN WAS A TELEVISION JOURNALIST JUST LIKE I AM NOW.

SHE THOUGHT HE WOULD BRING GREATER FREEDOM.

INSTEAD, THE AYATOLLAH WHO HAD PREACHED EQUALITY FOR WOMEN ORDERED THEM TO COVER THEMSELVES FROM HEAD TO FOOT >> HE WAS AGAINST THAT.

THAT'S WHY I LOST MY JOB.

>> SHE WAS FIRED FOR DEFYING THE ORDER BY REFUELING -- REFUSING TO WEAR IT OR THE HEADSCARF.

21 YEARS AGO WOMEN DEMONSTRATED AGAINST IT.

ABC NEWS WAS THERE.

OUT OF THE CROWD THEY FOUND MY COUSIN.

>> I WAS WITH THE AYATOLLAH.

I ALWAYS SAID THAT THE LEADER IS THE AYATOLLAH BUT NOT NOW.

HE IS AGAINST THE WOMAN.

AT FIRST I WAS AGAINST IT.

NOW I THINK IT IS ALL ABOUT WOMEN.

WE HAVE MANY EDUCATED WOMEN, VERY INTELLIGENT WOMEN AND CAPABLE WOMEN.

IN LOW WE ARE NOT EQUAL WITH MEN.

THAT IS THE MAIN RESTRICTION FOR US, NOT THE SCARF.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT THE YOUNG WOMEN OF TODAY, THE PEOPLE OF YOUR DAUGHTER'S GENERATION, DO YOU THINK THEY ARE STRUGGLING FOR EQUAL RIGHTS?

>> YES.

OF COURSE.

I HOPE THEY WILL WIN.

I HOPE SO BECAUSE I HAVE TWO DAUGHTERS.

>> WHEN THE REVOLUTION HAPPENED I WAS ABOUT 21 YEARS OLD.

I HAD NO IDEA WHAT WAS GOING ON.

I WAS COMPLETELY POLITICALLY IGNORANT.

I HAD NO INTEREST, NO IDEA.

I OFTEN WONDER WHY I WAS SO UNAWARE.

BUT I HAD HAD A SHELTERED CHILDHOOD AND WHERE I GREW UP LOOKED MUCH LIKE AN AMERICAN CITY.

THE REVOLUTION CAUGHT ME BY SURPRISE BECAUSE THE CULTURE AND LIFESTYLE THAT I KNEW WERE LARGELY WESTERN.

WHAT IS STRANGE IS THAT BEHIND CLOSED DOORS LIFE LOOKS MUCH THE SAME AS IT DID WHEN I WAS A CHILD.

THIS IS MY FATHER'S 85th BIRTHDAY PARTY IT IS STRICTLY A FAMILY GATHERING.

EVERYONE HERE IS RELATED SO IT IS OKAY FOR US TO UNCOVER OURSELVES AND CELEBRATE LIKE THIS >> YOU ARE FREE AT YOUR HOME.

YOU CAN DO WHAT YOU WANT TO DO AT YOUR HOME.

>> IS THAT WHAT IT'S ABOUT.

DO YOU TAKE YOUR PERSONAL FREEDOMS INSIDE YOUR HOUSE.

>> YES.

>> LAST SUMMER THE PEOPLE BEGAN TO OPENLY CHALLENGE AUTHORITY.

NOW IT IS A CONSTANT GAME OF CAT AND MOUSE.

>> THE COUNTRY IS VERY STRANGE.

FOR EXAMPLE, YOU CAN EXPRESS YOURSELF.

YOU CAN WRITE ARTICLES IN THE NEWSPAPERS NOW.

AS WELL THEY ARE FREE TO ARREST YOU.

EVERYBODY HAS THEIR OWN FREEDOM.

YOU CAN WRITE, THEY CAN ARREST YOU.

IT IS STRANGE DOWN.

>>> THE NEXT GUEST SAYS AMERICANS ARE LIVING IN A SURVEILLANCE STATE.

SHE IS SOUNDING THE ALARM ABOUT THE DANGERS OF TECHNO- AUTHORITARIANISM.

AWARD-WINNING JOURNALIST CAROLE CADWALLADR CALLS IT THE "BROLIGARCHY."

IT IS THE TITLE OF HER SUBSTACK SERIES.

SHE JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION DECISION TO USE DATA ANALYTICS PALANTIR TECHNOLOGIES.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

MOST OF THE AUDIENCE MAY REMEMBER EUROPE PULITZER AWARD- WINNING JOURNALIST WHO WORKED AT THE GUARDIAN FOR DECADES.

NOW YOU HAVE LAUNCHED A SUBSTACK WHICH IS CALLED HOW TO SURVIVE THE "BROLIGARCHY."

IN YOUR COLUMN YOU WRITE THE OPAQUE AND UNACCOUNTABLE FACILITIES ARE NOW KEY PLAYERS IN ACCELERATING GLOBAL ACCESS OF AUTOCRACY.

I BELIEVE IT IS A NEW FORM AND TYPE OF POWER I AM COMMITTED TO KEEP ON EXPOSING.

WHAT IS THE "BROLIGARCHY"?

>> WE HAVE THIS NEW CLASS OF OLIGARCHS OUT OF SILICON VALLEY .

AS WE KNOW THEY ARE TECH BOROUGHS.

AN OLIGARCHY, WE KNOW IT IN THE RUSSIAN SENSE IN THAT IT IS A GROUP OF BUSINESSMEN WHO ARE ABLE TO MAKE FAST FORTUNES AS LONG AS THEY SUPPORT PUTIN.

AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT DISSENT FROM THE AIMS OF THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT.

WE CAN SEE THAT EXACT SAME RELATIONSHIP NOW IN THE USA AND THAT THE TECH COMPANIES VERY CLEARLY ARE SUPPORTING AND STANDING BEHIND TRUMP, LITERALLY AT THE INAUGURATION.

THE REASON THAT I SAY IT IS A KIND OF POWER THAT THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN BEFORE IS THAT THESE ARE NOT JUST FAST CORPORATE'S MAKING SOME TYPE OF MACHINES OR CARS OR WHATEVER.

THESE ARE MEN WHO OWN GLOBAL COMMUNICATION PLATFORMS.

THOSE GLOBAL COMMUNICATION PLATFORMS ARE NOW ALLIED TO THE U.S. GOVERNMENT WHICH WE CAN SEE QUITE CLEARLY IS ACTING IN AN AUTHORITARIAN WAY AND IT IS MAKING ALLIANCES WITH THESE AUTOCRACIES AROUND THE WORLD.

FOR ME IT IS THIS VERY DANGEROUS, CENTRALIZED, FAR- REACHING AND EXTENSIVE TYPE OF POWER AT THE BIG LEVEL AND ALSO AT THE MICRO LEVEL IN OUR PERSONAL LIVES.

>> THIS PAST APRIL YOU DID ANOTHER TECH TALK WHERE YOU COMPARED WHAT'S HAPPENED IN RUSSIA TO WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE UNITED STATES.

HE SAID THE RUSSIAN AND AMERICAN PRESIDENTS ARE SPEAKING THE SAME WORDS, TELLING THE SAME LIES.

WE ARE WATCHING THE COLLAPSE OF THE INTERNATIONAL ORDER IN REAL TIME.

WHY DO YOU CALL THIS A DIGITAL COUP?

>> THE THING THAT REALLY TRIGGERED MY SENSE OF ALARM WAS THE FIRST WEEKEND TRUMP CAME INTO OFFICE.

THAT FIRST WEEKEND, DELIVERY AT THE WEEKEND TOOK ACCESS OF THE U.S. TREASURY.

THEY GAINED ACCESS TO THE BUILDING AND THAT THE DATABASES.

THAT, IT WAS SUCH A CLUE TO WHAT IS GOING ON WHICH IS, I SAY THIS WITH SILICON VALLEY IT IS ALWAYS ABOUT THE DATA.

IT IS THE CRACK COCAINE.

THEY CANNOT GET ENOUGH OF IT.

THEY KNOW THAT THAT IS WHERE POWER AND CONTROL LIES.

WHAT WE HAVE SEEN THEM DO THROUGH THIS IS GET ACCESS TO ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

THEY HAVE ACCESS TO THESE DATABASES.

NOW WE KNOW FROM REPORTING IN THE NEW YORK TIMES THAT PALANTIR WHICH IS A DATA ANALYTICS COMPANY IS NOW BEING MANDATED TO USE ITS SOFTWARE TO BRING ALL OF THESE DATABASES TOGETHER.

BY THE WAY, THEY HAVE DENIED THIS, BUT AS IT WAS SET OUT IN THE NEW YORK TIMES REPORTING IT IS THE IDEA OF CREATING A GIANT DATABASE OF ALL AMERICAN CITIZENS.

THAT CAN ALSO BE COMBINED WITH COMMERCIAL DATA, SOCIAL MEDIA DATA.

THAT IS A SURVEILLANCE STATE.

THAT IS WHAT IT IS.

THAT IS WHAT CHINA HAS.

IT IS CLEARLY USED IN CHINA TO PROFILE, TARGET, SURVEIL AND SUPPRESS DISSENT.

I THINK PEOPLE SHOULD BE REALLY REALLY WORRIED ABOUT WHAT THIS MEANS AS A COUNTRY BUT ALSO AT AN INDIVIDUAL LEVEL.

>> I CAN SEE THAT ONE OF THE JUSTIFICATIONS FOR TRYING TO AGGREGATE THE DATA TOGETHER IS PEOPLE WILL SAY, YOU ARE RIGHT.

WE HAVE SO MANY DEPARTMENTS AND INFORMATION SILOS AND THIS INFORMATION ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT TAXES ARE FILED ON TIME.

THIS ABOUT GETTING MEDICAID OR MEDICARE ET CETERA.

WHAT IS THE HARM OF PUTTING THAT TOGETHER UNDER ONE ROOF?

DOESN'T IT MAKE GOVERNMENT MORE EFFICIENT?

>> TRUMP ACTUALLY SIGNED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER ABOUT ELIMINATING FRAUD, WASTE, AND ABUSE THROUGH ELIMINATING INFORMATION SILOS.

IT IS EXACTLY THAT IDEA.

THIS IS ALWAYS THE LANGUAGE.

IT WILL MAKE LIFE BETTER, MORE EFFICIENT, EASIER.

OF COURSE, THERE ARE SOME INSTANCES WHERE IT'S TRUE.

IF IT IS COLLECTED IN AN ETHICAL, TRANSPARENT WAY WHICH PROTECTS THE PRIVACY OF INDIVIDUAL USERS THAT CAN BE THE CASE.

THIS IS NOT THAT.

THERE ARE NO PROTECTIONS.

THERE ARE NO ETHICAL GUIDELINES THAT WE CAN SEE.

NONE OF THIS IS BEING DONE WITH PEOPLE'S CONSENT OR EVEN THEIR KNOWLEDGE.

IT IS GOING TO BE USED IN OPAQUE AND UNACCOUNTABLE WAYS.

IT'S NOT JUST THAT IT COULD BE USED TO TARGET CRITIC.

IT CAN BE USED TO TARGET PROTESTERS.

WE CAN ALREADY SEE THAT PEOPLE ARE BEING ROUNDED UP OFF THE STREETS WITH REGARDS TO WHETHER THEY HAVE ATTENDED PROTEST.

SO THERE IS THAT.

THERE IS THE TARGETING OF PEOPLE BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T AGREE WITH THEIR VIEWS PICK IT CAN ALSO BE USED TO DENY PEOPLE THE SERVICES THEY ARE ENTITLED TO.

TO DENY THEM FROM WELFARE OR MEDICAID.

IT'S THE IDEA THAT A BEAUTIFUL COMPUTER WILL BE ALL-KNOWING AND WILL BE ABLE TO MAKE THESE DECISIONS WITHOUT ANY HUMAN INTERVENTION.

>> WE SHOULD POINT OUT THAT 10 DEMOCRATIC LAWMAKERS SENT A LETTER ON MONDAY ASKING THAT THE TECH COMPANY ANSWER QUESTIONS ABOUT ITS CONTRACTS WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND THE NEW YORK TIMES REPORTED RECENTLY THAT THEY BEGAN HELPING IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS IN REMOVAL OPERATIONS.

I WONDER, THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY JUST ONES AND ZEROS ATTACHED TO MY NAME.

THIS COULD ACTUALLY HAVE CONSEQUENCES IN THE REAL WORLD.

>> EXACTLY.

I THINK THAT IS THE THING TO REMEMBER.

ALL OF THESE, THEY ARE USING THIS TO TRAIN A.I.

WHICH WILL CREATE ALGORITHMS EACH WILL MAKE LIFE AND DEATH DECISIONS ABOUT ORDINARY PEOPLE WITH ORDINARY PROBLEMS WHO WILL HAVE NO WAY OF CHALLENGING THE COMPUTER.

THE COMPUTER SAYS NO AND THAT IS IT.

I THINK FOCUSING ON THOSE REAL- WORLD CONSEQUENCES IS REALLY VITAL.

ALSO REALIZING IT CAN EASILY GET THINGS WRONG.

IF YOU HAVE THE SAME NAME AS SOMEBODY ON A TERRORIST WATCH LIST AND YOU GET TARGETED BECAUSE OF THAT.

WE KNOW THAT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED TO PEOPLE AFTER 9/11.

SO THINK OF THAT ON STEROIDS.

IF YOU HAVE THE SAME NAME AS SOMEONE THAT ATTENDED A PALESTINIAN PROTEST RALLY, THESE ALGORITHMS ARE FAR FROM INFALLIBLE.

YOU HAVE USED CHAT GPT.

YOU KNOW IT HALLUCINATES THINGS THAT ARE NOT EVEN THERE.

IT IS A VERY FALLIBLE MACHINE THAT AS I SAY COULD BE MAKING DECISIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPACT PEOPLE'S LIVES.

>> IN RESPONSE TO THE NEW YORK TIMES REPORTING PALANTIR SET THE ALL STATEMENTS DOCUMENTED APPEAR TO FALL WELL BELOW SUCH STANDARDS AND EVEN RAISE QUESTIONS ABOUT THE AUTHOR'S APPEARANCE TO GUIDELINES ON INTEGRITY.

ON THEIR COMPANY BLOG THEY SAID THEY ACT AS A DATA PROCESSOR, NOT A DATA CONTROLLER.

THE U.S. ARMY ANNOUNCED CREATION OF THE EXECUTIVE INNOVATION CORE.

IT IS DESIGNED TO FUSE CUTTING- EDGE TECH EXPERTISE WITH INNOVATION.

THEY HAVE TAPPED THE CHIEF TECHNOLOGY OFFICER OF PALANTIR TO JOIN THIS COALITION.

DOES THIS -- HOW DOES THIS IMPACT THE AMERICAN PUBLIC?

>> IT IS THIS COMING TOGETHER OF THE SILICON VALLEY COMPANIES, THIS AUTHORITARIAN GOVERNMENT.

NOW THE INCREASING MILITARIZATION.

IT IS THE BIZARRE LIST NEWS STORY OF THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS.

THESE EXECUTIVE OFFICERS HAVE BECOME LIEUTENANT COLONEL'S IN THE U.S. MILITARY.

AGAIN IT IS JUST TRULY ALARMING.

IT IS THE MILITARIZATION OF THE SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS WE USE EVERY DAY.

I HAVE BEEN PREACHING THIS FOR THE LAST 10 YEARS ABOUT THE DANGER OF THESE COMPANIES.

THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING IN REAL- TIME.

>> IS THERE A FRAMEWORK FOR POLICY OUR REGULATORY FRAMEWORK ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET AT THIS POINT THAT WORKS TO SERVE AS A CHECK ON ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE , ON PERHAPS THE EXTENT OF POWER THE "BROLIGARCHY" MIGHT HAVE?

>> WE ARE AT A FRIGHTENING JUNCTURE IN THAT RESPECT THAT THESE FRIGHTENING COMPANIES, TRUMP HAS ADDED TO HIS BIG BEAUTIFUL BILL THIS AMENDMENT THAT WOULD MANDATE EVERY SINGLE U.S. STATE.

IT WOULD PREVENT THEM FROM PASSING ANY LEGISLATION THAT SEEKS TO CURB OR CONTROL OR EVEN SCRUTINIZE THESE A.I.

COMPANIES AND WHAT THEY ARE BUILDING.

THESE ARE TOTALLY UNTESTED TECHNOLOGIES.

THE POTENTIAL FOR HARM IS OFF THE SCALE.

WE CAN CLEARLY SEE IN THE U.S. THAT IF THAT BILL GETS PASSED IT WILL BECOME IMPOSSIBLE.

AT THIS POINT, THE ONLY PLACE WHERE WE DO SEE LEGISLATION WHERE WE DO SEE THE WILL AND THE KNOWLEDGE TO ACT IS IN THE EUROPEAN UNION.

WHETHER IT CAN ENFORCE THIS LEGISLATION IS REMAINING TO BE SEEN IN A WORLD IN WHICH TRIP -- TRUMP USES SARAH SAYS BARGAINING CHIPS.

WE ARE IN REALLY UNCHARTED WATERS.

>> I WONDERED IF THESE COMPANIES ARE MAYBE TOO BIG TO FAIL AND WHEN THEY ARE IN RELATIONSHIPS WITH GOVERNMENTS, GOVERNMENTS ALSO HAVE AN INCENTIVE TO MAKE SURE THEIR CONTRACTOR DOESN'T FAIL?

>> IT IS A TOTAL FAILURE OF CAPITALISM OF AMERICA.

AMERICA WAS BUILT BECAUSE IT HAD STRONG LAWS THAT HAVE ENABLED THE FREE MARKET FOR PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO GO OUT AND CREATE BUSINESSES AND CREATE WEALTH.

THAT IS WHERE THE PROSPERITY HAS COME FROM.

NOW WE HAVE ENTERED AN AGE OF MONOPOLIES.

MONOPOLIES WHICH HAVE NOT BEEN BROKEN UP ALTHOUGH THERE ARE LAWSUITS NOW WHICH ARE FINALLY COMING.

THOSE MONOPOLIES PREVENT INNOVATION.

THEY PREVENT NEW TECHNOLOGY COMPANIES COMING TO THE MARKET.

WE ALL USE INSTAGRAM AND FACEBOOK WHICH ARE ALL OWNED BY MARK ZUCKERBERG.

THEY HAVE DOMINATED THE MARKET.

THEY ABSOLUTELY FIRST THING THAT WE HAVE TO DO, IT'S A NONPARTISAN ISSUE.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT LEFT OR RIGHT OR DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN.

IT'S JUST ABOUT ENFORCING THE ACTUAL LAWS THAT YOU HAVE AND BREAKING UP WITH A CLEARLY MONOPOLISTIC COMPANIES DOMINATING THE MARKET.

THAT HAS IMPACT NOT JUST ON BUSINESS.

IT HAS IMPACT ON US AS CITIZENS, AS CONSUMERS.

THERE IS NO CONSENT -- INCENTIVE TO BUILD BETTER, SAFER PRODUCTS.

INSTAGRAM, WE CAN SEE THERE ARE SO MANY BAD EFFECTS ON TEENAGERS, MENTAL HEALTH.

WE'VE HEARD STORY AFTER STORY OF STUFF THEY DONE, BUT THERE HAS NOT BEEN A CLEAR COMPETITOR BECAUSE THEY HAVE AS I SAY JUST DOMINATED THE MARKETS.

THAT PURCHASE BY FACEBOOK SHOULD CLEARLY NEVER HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO HAPPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE.

>> SO LET'S SAY SOMEBODY IN THE AUDIENCE AGREES WITH 20 OR PREMISES THAT THE FOUNDATIONS OF A TECHNO-AUTHORITARIAN SURVEILLANCE STATE HAVE BEEN LAID.

YOU ARE STILL A LITTLE OPTIMISTIC.

WHAT IS AN AVERAGE CITIZEN TO DO IF THEY WANT TO DIGITALLY DISOBEY?

>> I THINK IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

THERE IS THIS FAMOUS PHRASE FROM TIM SNYDER, HE SAYS DO NOT OBEY IN ADVANCE.

IT'S THE IDEA THAT YOU CAN SEE THE THREAT COMING AND YOU PRE- OBEY.

THAT IS JUST LIKE EVEN LITTLE TINY THINGS.

LIKE DO YOU ACCEPT THE COOKIES, NO.

YOU SHOULD NOT.

THAT IS TRACKING YOU.

YOU DON'T WANT THAT.

REJECT THEM.

WHEN YOU ARE ASKED WHEN YOU ARE GOING ON SOME WEBSITE THEY WANT YOUR NAME, YOUR EMAIL, YOUR DATE OF BIRTH, DON'T GIVE IT TO THEM.

THAT IS PRIVATE INFORMATION.

IT IS EVERYTHING THAT YOU DO LIKE THAT WHERE YOU ARE JUST GIVING AWAY INFORMATION, THAT CAN BE USED IN SOME WAY.

IT IS BEING COMBINED WITH OTHER INFORMATION.

WE ALL HAVE TO GET INTO THE HABIT OF PROTECTING OUR PRIVACY.

PRIVACY IS POWER.

THAT'S ONE OF THE KEY THINGS TO REMEMBER.

IF YOU WANT AGENCY OVER YOUR OWN LIFE YOU NEED AGENCY OVER YOUR DIGITAL LIFE.

I THINK THAT IS ONE OF THE KEY POINTS THAT I TRIED TO HAMMER HOME.

I GIVE THE EXAMPLE ABOUT YOUR KIDS.

CHILDREN ARE PEOPLE.

IF THEY ARE NOT OVER THE AGE OF CONSENT, WHY WOULD YOU PUT THEIR IMAGES ONTO THAT FORMS WHICH ARE HARVESTING THEIR DATA WHICH WE CAN CLEARLY SEE ALIGNED WITH EITHER AUTHORITARIAN OR HOSTILE GOVERNMENTS.

YOU DON'T KNOW HOW THAT WILL BE USED IN THE FUTURE.

IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR KIDS AND OF COURSE YOU DO YOU WANT TO PROTECT THEM AND THINK ABOUT HOW YOU PROTECT THEM IN THIS ONLINE SPACE.

I THINK THAT IS SOMEWHERE IN YEARS TO COME THAT SOCIAL MORES ARE REALLY GOING TO CHANGE.

CHILDREN OF AGE NOW ARE GOING TO GROW UP AND ASK THEIR PARENTS, WHY DID YOU DO THAT.

THAT IS SOMETHING WHICH PEOPLE CAN CLEARLY DO SOMETHING ABOUT NOW.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>>> FINALLY TONIGHT, ONE OF THE WORLD'S MOST FAMOUS MUSEUMS WAS FORCED TO CLOSE ITS DOORS EARLIER THIS WEEK.

THE LOUVRE IN PARIS SHUT AFTER A SPONTANEOUS STRIKE BY STAFF WHO SAY THEY ARE OVERWHELMED BY THE TOURISTS.

STAY TUNED FOR MY CONVERSATION NEXT WEEK.

SHE HAS BEEN EXPLORING THE ICONIC MUSEUM IN WAYS YOU'VE NEVER BEFORE SEEN LIKE JOINING WINDOW WASHERS.

DIVULGING WHY SO MANY EMPLOYEES HAVE A LOVE-HATE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE MONA LISA.

IT'S ALL IN HER NEW BOOK.

>> I FOUND OUT THAT THERE WAS A LIBRARIAN IN CHARGE OF ALL OF THE LETTERS ABOUT THE MONA LISA AND TO THE MONA LISA.

I WENT THROUGH EVERY SINGLE LETTER.

IT REALLY WAS AN INVESTIGATIVE BUT ALSO ON THE GROUND REPORTING JOB.

>> SO WE'VE DONE THE PROCESS SO NOW WE TALK ABOUT THE ART.

IT STANDS TO REASON.

80% OF FIRST-TIME VISITORS GO SPECIFICALLY TO SEE THE MONA LISA.

WHAT WAS YOUR EXPERIENCE COVERING THAT?

YOU HAD OBVIOUSLY SEEN IT BEFORE BUT WHAT WAS YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE MONA LISA AND THE CROWDS?

>> I WAS LUCKY BECAUSE I GOT IN MANY TIMES WHEN NO ONE ELSE WAS THERE.

I WAS ABLE TO SEE THE MONA LISA, JUST SHE AND I BONDED.

AFTER A WHILE YOU CAN APPRECIATE WHY SHE IS SO MAGICAL.

>> YOU DID NOT APPRECIATE BEFORE?

>> NO.

I STILL DON'T LIKE THE FACT THAT SHE IS SO IMPORTANT.

SHE'S A FLORENTINE IN A ROOM WITH VENETIAN PAINTINGS.

SHE DOES NOT BELONG THERE.

>> MUCH MORE OF HER FASCINATED ADVENTURES IN THE LOUVRE .

>>> IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/TRAN02.

INC. YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE.