>>> THE NEXT GUEST SAYS AMERICANS ARE LIVING IN A SURVEILLANCE STATE.

SHE IS SOUNDING THE ALARM ABOUT THE DANGERS OF TECHNO- AUTHORITARIANISM.

AWARD-WINNING JOURNALIST CAROLE CADWALLADR CALLS IT THE "BROLIGARCHY."

IT IS THE TITLE OF HER SUBSTACK SERIES.

SHE JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION DECISION TO USE DATA ANALYTICS PALANTIR TECHNOLOGIES.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

MOST OF THE AUDIENCE MAY REMEMBER EUROPE PULITZER AWARD- WINNING JOURNALIST WHO WORKED AT THE GUARDIAN FOR DECADES.

NOW YOU HAVE LAUNCHED A SUBSTACK WHICH IS CALLED HOW TO SURVIVE THE "BROLIGARCHY."

IN YOUR COLUMN YOU WRITE THE OPAQUE AND UNACCOUNTABLE FACILITIES ARE NOW KEY PLAYERS IN ACCELERATING GLOBAL ACCESS OF AUTOCRACY.

I BELIEVE IT IS A NEW FORM AND TYPE OF POWER I AM COMMITTED TO KEEP ON EXPOSING.

WHAT IS THE "BROLIGARCHY"?

>> WE HAVE THIS NEW CLASS OF OLIGARCHS OUT OF SILICON VALLEY .

AS WE KNOW THEY ARE TECH BOROUGHS.

AN OLIGARCHY, WE KNOW IT IN THE RUSSIAN SENSE IN THAT IT IS A GROUP OF BUSINESSMEN WHO ARE ABLE TO MAKE FAST FORTUNES AS LONG AS THEY SUPPORT PUTIN.

AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT DISSENT FROM THE AIMS OF THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT.

WE CAN SEE THAT EXACT SAME RELATIONSHIP NOW IN THE USA AND THAT THE TECH COMPANIES VERY CLEARLY ARE SUPPORTING AND STANDING BEHIND TRUMP, LITERALLY AT THE INAUGURATION.

THE REASON THAT I SAY IT IS A KIND OF POWER THAT THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN BEFORE IS THAT THESE ARE NOT JUST FAST CORPORATE'S MAKING SOME TYPE OF MACHINES OR CARS OR WHATEVER.

THESE ARE MEN WHO OWN GLOBAL COMMUNICATION PLATFORMS.

THOSE GLOBAL COMMUNICATION PLATFORMS ARE NOW ALLIED TO THE U.S. GOVERNMENT WHICH WE CAN SEE QUITE CLEARLY IS ACTING IN AN AUTHORITARIAN WAY AND IT IS MAKING ALLIANCES WITH THESE AUTOCRACIES AROUND THE WORLD.

FOR ME IT IS THIS VERY DANGEROUS, CENTRALIZED, FAR- REACHING AND EXTENSIVE TYPE OF POWER AT THE BIG LEVEL AND ALSO AT THE MICRO LEVEL IN OUR PERSONAL LIVES.

>> THIS PAST APRIL YOU DID ANOTHER TECH TALK WHERE YOU COMPARED WHAT'S HAPPENED IN RUSSIA TO WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE UNITED STATES.

HE SAID THE RUSSIAN AND AMERICAN PRESIDENTS ARE SPEAKING THE SAME WORDS, TELLING THE SAME LIES.

WE ARE WATCHING THE COLLAPSE OF THE INTERNATIONAL ORDER IN REAL TIME.

WHY DO YOU CALL THIS A DIGITAL COUP?

>> THE THING THAT REALLY TRIGGERED MY SENSE OF ALARM WAS THE FIRST WEEKEND TRUMP CAME INTO OFFICE.

THAT FIRST WEEKEND, DELIVERY AT THE WEEKEND TOOK ACCESS OF THE U.S. TREASURY.

THEY GAINED ACCESS TO THE BUILDING AND THAT THE DATABASES.

THAT, IT WAS SUCH A CLUE TO WHAT IS GOING ON WHICH IS, I SAY THIS WITH SILICON VALLEY IT IS ALWAYS ABOUT THE DATA.

IT IS THE CRACK COCAINE.

THEY CANNOT GET ENOUGH OF IT.

THEY KNOW THAT THAT IS WHERE POWER AND CONTROL LIES.

WHAT WE HAVE SEEN THEM DO THROUGH THIS IS GET ACCESS TO ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

THEY HAVE ACCESS TO THESE DATABASES.

NOW WE KNOW FROM REPORTING IN THE NEW YORK TIMES THAT PALANTIR WHICH IS A DATA ANALYTICS COMPANY IS NOW BEING MANDATED TO USE ITS SOFTWARE TO BRING ALL OF THESE DATABASES TOGETHER.

BY THE WAY, THEY HAVE DENIED THIS, BUT AS IT WAS SET OUT IN THE NEW YORK TIMES REPORTING IT IS THE IDEA OF CREATING A GIANT DATABASE OF ALL AMERICAN CITIZENS.

THAT CAN ALSO BE COMBINED WITH COMMERCIAL DATA, SOCIAL MEDIA DATA.

THAT IS A SURVEILLANCE STATE.

THAT IS WHAT IT IS.

THAT IS WHAT CHINA HAS.

IT IS CLEARLY USED IN CHINA TO PROFILE, TARGET, SURVEIL AND SUPPRESS DISSENT.

I THINK PEOPLE SHOULD BE REALLY REALLY WORRIED ABOUT WHAT THIS MEANS AS A COUNTRY BUT ALSO AT AN INDIVIDUAL LEVEL.

>> I CAN SEE THAT ONE OF THE JUSTIFICATIONS FOR TRYING TO AGGREGATE THE DATA TOGETHER IS PEOPLE WILL SAY, YOU ARE RIGHT.

WE HAVE SO MANY DEPARTMENTS AND INFORMATION SILOS AND THIS INFORMATION ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT TAXES ARE FILED ON TIME.

THIS ABOUT GETTING MEDICAID OR MEDICARE ET CETERA.

WHAT IS THE HARM OF PUTTING THAT TOGETHER UNDER ONE ROOF?

DOESN'T IT MAKE GOVERNMENT MORE EFFICIENT?

>> TRUMP ACTUALLY SIGNED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER ABOUT ELIMINATING FRAUD, WASTE, AND ABUSE THROUGH ELIMINATING INFORMATION SILOS.

IT IS EXACTLY THAT IDEA.

THIS IS ALWAYS THE LANGUAGE.

IT WILL MAKE LIFE BETTER, MORE EFFICIENT, EASIER.

OF COURSE, THERE ARE SOME INSTANCES WHERE IT'S TRUE.

IF IT IS COLLECTED IN AN ETHICAL, TRANSPARENT WAY WHICH PROTECTS THE PRIVACY OF INDIVIDUAL USERS THAT CAN BE THE CASE.

THIS IS NOT THAT.

THERE ARE NO PROTECTIONS.

THERE ARE NO ETHICAL GUIDELINES THAT WE CAN SEE.

NONE OF THIS IS BEING DONE WITH PEOPLE'S CONSENT OR EVEN THEIR KNOWLEDGE.

IT IS GOING TO BE USED IN OPAQUE AND UNACCOUNTABLE WAYS.

IT'S NOT JUST THAT IT COULD BE USED TO TARGET CRITIC.

IT CAN BE USED TO TARGET PROTESTERS.

WE CAN ALREADY SEE THAT PEOPLE ARE BEING ROUNDED UP OFF THE STREETS WITH REGARDS TO WHETHER THEY HAVE ATTENDED PROTEST.

SO THERE IS THAT.

THERE IS THE TARGETING OF PEOPLE BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T AGREE WITH THEIR VIEWS PICK IT CAN ALSO BE USED TO DENY PEOPLE THE SERVICES THEY ARE ENTITLED TO.

TO DENY THEM FROM WELFARE OR MEDICAID.

IT'S THE IDEA THAT A BEAUTIFUL COMPUTER WILL BE ALL-KNOWING AND WILL BE ABLE TO MAKE THESE DECISIONS WITHOUT ANY HUMAN INTERVENTION.

>> WE SHOULD POINT OUT THAT 10 DEMOCRATIC LAWMAKERS SENT A LETTER ON MONDAY ASKING THAT THE TECH COMPANY ANSWER QUESTIONS ABOUT ITS CONTRACTS WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND THE NEW YORK TIMES REPORTED RECENTLY THAT THEY BEGAN HELPING IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS IN REMOVAL OPERATIONS.

I WONDER, THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY JUST ONES AND ZEROS ATTACHED TO MY NAME.

THIS COULD ACTUALLY HAVE CONSEQUENCES IN THE REAL WORLD.

>> EXACTLY.

I THINK THAT IS THE THING TO REMEMBER.

ALL OF THESE, THEY ARE USING THIS TO TRAIN A.I.

WHICH WILL CREATE ALGORITHMS EACH WILL MAKE LIFE AND DEATH DECISIONS ABOUT ORDINARY PEOPLE WITH ORDINARY PROBLEMS WHO WILL HAVE NO WAY OF CHALLENGING THE COMPUTER.

THE COMPUTER SAYS NO AND THAT IS IT.

I THINK FOCUSING ON THOSE REAL- WORLD CONSEQUENCES IS REALLY VITAL.

ALSO REALIZING IT CAN EASILY GET THINGS WRONG.

IF YOU HAVE THE SAME NAME AS SOMEBODY ON A TERRORIST WATCH LIST AND YOU GET TARGETED BECAUSE OF THAT.

WE KNOW THAT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED TO PEOPLE AFTER 9/11.

SO THINK OF THAT ON STEROIDS.

IF YOU HAVE THE SAME NAME AS SOMEONE THAT ATTENDED A PALESTINIAN PROTEST RALLY, THESE ALGORITHMS ARE FAR FROM INFALLIBLE.

YOU HAVE USED CHAT GPT.

YOU KNOW IT HALLUCINATES THINGS THAT ARE NOT EVEN THERE.

IT IS A VERY FALLIBLE MACHINE THAT AS I SAY COULD BE MAKING DECISIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPACT PEOPLE'S LIVES.

>> IN RESPONSE TO THE NEW YORK TIMES REPORTING PALANTIR SET THE ALL STATEMENTS DOCUMENTED APPEAR TO FALL WELL BELOW SUCH STANDARDS AND EVEN RAISE QUESTIONS ABOUT THE AUTHOR'S APPEARANCE TO GUIDELINES ON INTEGRITY.

ON THEIR COMPANY BLOG THEY SAID THEY ACT AS A DATA PROCESSOR, NOT A DATA CONTROLLER.

THE U.S. ARMY ANNOUNCED CREATION OF THE EXECUTIVE INNOVATION CORE.

IT IS DESIGNED TO FUSE CUTTING- EDGE TECH EXPERTISE WITH INNOVATION.

THEY HAVE TAPPED THE CHIEF TECHNOLOGY OFFICER OF PALANTIR TO JOIN THIS COALITION.

DOES THIS -- HOW DOES THIS IMPACT THE AMERICAN PUBLIC?

>> IT IS THIS COMING TOGETHER OF THE SILICON VALLEY COMPANIES, THIS AUTHORITARIAN GOVERNMENT.

NOW THE INCREASING MILITARIZATION.

IT IS THE BIZARRE LIST NEWS STORY OF THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS.

THESE EXECUTIVE OFFICERS HAVE BECOME LIEUTENANT COLONEL'S IN THE U.S. MILITARY.

AGAIN IT IS JUST TRULY ALARMING.

IT IS THE MILITARIZATION OF THE SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS WE USE EVERY DAY.

I HAVE BEEN PREACHING THIS FOR THE LAST 10 YEARS ABOUT THE DANGER OF THESE COMPANIES.

THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING IN REAL- TIME.

>> IS THERE A FRAMEWORK FOR POLICY OUR REGULATORY FRAMEWORK ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET AT THIS POINT THAT WORKS TO SERVE AS A CHECK ON ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE , ON PERHAPS THE EXTENT OF POWER THE "BROLIGARCHY" MIGHT HAVE?

>> WE ARE AT A FRIGHTENING JUNCTURE IN THAT RESPECT THAT THESE FRIGHTENING COMPANIES, TRUMP HAS ADDED TO HIS BIG BEAUTIFUL BILL THIS AMENDMENT THAT WOULD MANDATE EVERY SINGLE U.S. STATE.

IT WOULD PREVENT THEM FROM PASSING ANY LEGISLATION THAT SEEKS TO CURB OR CONTROL OR EVEN SCRUTINIZE THESE A.I.

COMPANIES AND WHAT THEY ARE BUILDING.

THESE ARE TOTALLY UNTESTED TECHNOLOGIES.

THE POTENTIAL FOR HARM IS OFF THE SCALE.

WE CAN CLEARLY SEE IN THE U.S. THAT IF THAT BILL GETS PASSED IT WILL BECOME IMPOSSIBLE.

AT THIS POINT, THE ONLY PLACE WHERE WE DO SEE LEGISLATION WHERE WE DO SEE THE WILL AND THE KNOWLEDGE TO ACT IS IN THE EUROPEAN UNION.

WHETHER IT CAN ENFORCE THIS LEGISLATION IS REMAINING TO BE SEEN IN A WORLD IN WHICH TRIP -- TRUMP USES SARAH SAYS BARGAINING CHIPS.

WE ARE IN REALLY UNCHARTED WATERS.

>> I WONDERED IF THESE COMPANIES ARE MAYBE TOO BIG TO FAIL AND WHEN THEY ARE IN RELATIONSHIPS WITH GOVERNMENTS, GOVERNMENTS ALSO HAVE AN INCENTIVE TO MAKE SURE THEIR CONTRACTOR DOESN'T FAIL?

>> IT IS A TOTAL FAILURE OF CAPITALISM OF AMERICA.

AMERICA WAS BUILT BECAUSE IT HAD STRONG LAWS THAT HAVE ENABLED THE FREE MARKET FOR PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO GO OUT AND CREATE BUSINESSES AND CREATE WEALTH.

THAT IS WHERE THE PROSPERITY HAS COME FROM.

NOW WE HAVE ENTERED AN AGE OF MONOPOLIES.

MONOPOLIES WHICH HAVE NOT BEEN BROKEN UP ALTHOUGH THERE ARE LAWSUITS NOW WHICH ARE FINALLY COMING.

THOSE MONOPOLIES PREVENT INNOVATION.

THEY PREVENT NEW TECHNOLOGY COMPANIES COMING TO THE MARKET.

WE ALL USE INSTAGRAM AND FACEBOOK WHICH ARE ALL OWNED BY MARK ZUCKERBERG.

THEY HAVE DOMINATED THE MARKET.

THEY ABSOLUTELY FIRST THING THAT WE HAVE TO DO, IT'S A NONPARTISAN ISSUE.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT LEFT OR RIGHT OR DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN.

IT'S JUST ABOUT ENFORCING THE ACTUAL LAWS THAT YOU HAVE AND BREAKING UP WITH A CLEARLY MONOPOLISTIC COMPANIES DOMINATING THE MARKET.

THAT HAS IMPACT NOT JUST ON BUSINESS.

IT HAS IMPACT ON US AS CITIZENS, AS CONSUMERS.

THERE IS NO CONSENT -- INCENTIVE TO BUILD BETTER, SAFER PRODUCTS.

INSTAGRAM, WE CAN SEE THERE ARE SO MANY BAD EFFECTS ON TEENAGERS, MENTAL HEALTH.

WE'VE HEARD STORY AFTER STORY OF STUFF THEY DONE, BUT THERE HAS NOT BEEN A CLEAR COMPETITOR BECAUSE THEY HAVE AS I SAY JUST DOMINATED THE MARKETS.

THAT PURCHASE BY FACEBOOK SHOULD CLEARLY NEVER HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO HAPPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE.

>> SO LET'S SAY SOMEBODY IN THE AUDIENCE AGREES WITH 20 OR PREMISES THAT THE FOUNDATIONS OF A TECHNO-AUTHORITARIAN SURVEILLANCE STATE HAVE BEEN LAID.

YOU ARE STILL A LITTLE OPTIMISTIC.

WHAT IS AN AVERAGE CITIZEN TO DO IF THEY WANT TO DIGITALLY DISOBEY?

>> I THINK IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

THERE IS THIS FAMOUS PHRASE FROM TIM SNYDER, HE SAYS DO NOT OBEY IN ADVANCE.

IT'S THE IDEA THAT YOU CAN SEE THE THREAT COMING AND YOU PRE- OBEY.

THAT IS JUST LIKE EVEN LITTLE TINY THINGS.

LIKE DO YOU ACCEPT THE COOKIES, NO.

YOU SHOULD NOT.

THAT IS TRACKING YOU.

YOU DON'T WANT THAT.

REJECT THEM.

WHEN YOU ARE ASKED WHEN YOU ARE GOING ON SOME WEBSITE THEY WANT YOUR NAME, YOUR EMAIL, YOUR DATE OF BIRTH, DON'T GIVE IT TO THEM.

THAT IS PRIVATE INFORMATION.

IT IS EVERYTHING THAT YOU DO LIKE THAT WHERE YOU ARE JUST GIVING AWAY INFORMATION, THAT CAN BE USED IN SOME WAY.

IT IS BEING COMBINED WITH OTHER INFORMATION.

WE ALL HAVE TO GET INTO THE HABIT OF PROTECTING OUR PRIVACY.

PRIVACY IS POWER.

THAT'S ONE OF THE KEY THINGS TO REMEMBER.

IF YOU WANT AGENCY OVER YOUR OWN LIFE YOU NEED AGENCY OVER YOUR DIGITAL LIFE.

I THINK THAT IS ONE OF THE KEY POINTS THAT I TRIED TO HAMMER HOME.

I GIVE THE EXAMPLE ABOUT YOUR KIDS.

CHILDREN ARE PEOPLE.

IF THEY ARE NOT OVER THE AGE OF CONSENT, WHY WOULD YOU PUT THEIR IMAGES ONTO THAT FORMS WHICH ARE HARVESTING THEIR DATA WHICH WE CAN CLEARLY SEE ALIGNED WITH EITHER AUTHORITARIAN OR HOSTILE GOVERNMENTS.

YOU DON'T KNOW HOW THAT WILL BE USED IN THE FUTURE.

IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR KIDS AND OF COURSE YOU DO YOU WANT TO PROTECT THEM AND THINK ABOUT HOW YOU PROTECT THEM IN THIS ONLINE SPACE.

I THINK THAT IS SOMEWHERE IN YEARS TO COME THAT SOCIAL MORES ARE REALLY GOING TO CHANGE.

CHILDREN OF AGE NOW ARE GOING TO GROW UP AND ASK THEIR PARENTS, WHY DID YOU DO THAT.

THAT IS SOMETHING WHICH PEOPLE CAN CLEARLY DO SOMETHING ABOUT NOW.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.