>>> ANOTHER FEATURE OF THE MAGA DECADE IS AN ALARMING RISE IN POLITICAL VIOLENCE.

TRUMP HIMSELF WAS SHOT AT DURING A CAMPAIGN APPEARANCE.

BARBARA WALTER, A PROFESSOR OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS AT UC SAN DIEGO, IS A LEADING EXPERT ON VIOLENT EXTREMISM AND DOMESTIC TERROR AND SHE SPEAKS WITH HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT THE RECENT POLITICAL ASSASSINATIONS IN MINNESOTA AND THE PRESENCE OF U.S.

TROOPS IN AMERICAN CITIES.

>> BARBARA WALTER, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US AGAIN.

RECENTLY WE'VE HAD THIS AT LEAST VISIBLE UPTICK IN POLITICAL VIOLENCE, POLITICAL TERRORISM, HOWEVER YOU WANT TO PHRASE IT.

WE HAD A GUY WHO ATTACKED GOVERNOR SHAPIRO'S HOME IN PENNSYLVANIA.

WE HAD THE KILLING OF ISRAELI EMBASSY WORKERS IN WASHINGTON, D.C.

GOING BACK FURTHER, WE HAD THE ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT ON PRESIDENT TRUMP.

I WONDER, AS SOMEONE WHO STUDIES THESE, WHAT DOES ALL THIS POLITICAL VIOLENCE SAY TO YOU AT THE MOMENT?

>> OH, IT SAYS THAT AMERICA IS ON TERRIBLE FOOTING RIGHT NOW AND IT'S NOT LIKELY TO GET BETTER IN THE NEAR FUTURE.

YOU KNOW, DOMESTIC TERRORISM HAS BEEN INCREASING SINCE AROUND 2012.

NOBODY REALLY PAID ATTENTION TO IT.

NOBODY REALLY TALKED ABOUT IT UNTIL JANUARY 6th AND THEN SUDDENLY IT BURST INTO THE SCENE AND LAW ENFORCEMENT HAS BEEN VERY, VERY SLOW TO RESPOND.

YOU KNOW, REALLY UNTIL RECENTLY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT WAS FOCUSED ON INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM, ESPECIALLY ISLAMIC TERRORISM.

THAT WAS THE BOOGEYMAN, THE ENEMY.

NOBODY WANTED TO TALK ABOUT RISE OF WHITE NATIONALIST VIOLENCE.

NOBODY WANTED TO TALK ABOUT ATTACKS ON SYNAGOGUES AND AFRICAN AMERICANS AND LATINOS.

NOBODY WANTED TO ACTUALLY NAME WHAT IT WAS, WHICH IS AMERICANS TURNING ON OTHER AMERICANS WITH VIOLENCE, AND SO IT WAS ALLOWED TO INCREASE AND WE'RE NOW SEEING MORE AND MORE OF IT AND IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO IGNORE AND NOTHING HAS CHANGED TO REDUCE IT AT THIS POINT IN TIME.

>> AS WE'RE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION, THERE'S STILL MORE INFORMATION COMING OUT ABOUT THE GUNMAN IN MINNESOTA WHO DISGUISED HIMSELF AS A POLICE OFFICER AND HE SHOT AND KILLED MINNESOTA STATE REPRESENTATIVE MELISSA HOTTER HORTMAN, HER HUSBAND, AND ANOTHER LAWMAKER AND HIS WIFE IN BACK-TO-BACK SHOOTINGS.

I'M WONDERING WHY YOU THINK THESE LAWMAKERS WERE TARGETED HE WANTED TO GO AFTER?

>> IT'S INTERESTING WHY MINNESOTA WAS TARGETED.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE DATA, VIOLENCE TENDS TO HAPPEN IN PLACES WHERE POWER IS BEING CONTESTED, SO NOT IN THE DEEP RED STATE OR DEEP BLUE STATES.

IT HAPPENS IN THE PURPLE STATES.

YOU LOOK HISTORICALLY WHERE WE'VE HAD HIGH INCIDENCES OF, FOR EXAMPLE, RACIAL VIOLENCE OR POLITICALLY MOTIVATED VIOLENCE, IT'S IN THE CITIES AND THE STATES AND THEN GLOBALLY IN THE COUNTRIES WHERE POWER IS SORT OF ON THE CUSP BETWEEN TWO DIFFERENT POTENTIALLY DOMINANT GROUPS AND IT ESPECIALLY HAPPENS WHEN THE ONCE DOMINANT GROUP IS DEMOGRAPHICALLY IN DECLINE.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT MINNESOTA, IT HAS A DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR, BUT ITS STATEHOUSE AND ITS STATE SENATE ARE BASICALLY TIED.

IT ALSO WAS THE SCENE OF THE GEORGE FLOYD MURDER AND THE PROTESTS STARTED THERE.

THERE'S BEEN A SERIES OF PROGRESSIVE POLICIES PASSED IN TERMS OF ABORTION RIGHTS AND IN TERMS OF GUN CONTROL AND THESE ARE ISSUES THAT THE FAR RIGHT IS VERY, VERY PASSIONATE ABOUT AND I THINK MANY ON THE FAR RIGHT BELIEVE WE'RE IN AN EXISTENTIAL FIGHT FOR THE FUTURE AND IDENTITY OF THIS COUNTRY AND THE FRONT LINE IS PLACES LIKE MINNESOTA.

>> I WONDER ABOUT THE REACTIONS THAT CAME AFTER THAT.

THERE WERE A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT SENATOR MIKE LEE, U.S.

SENATOR, HAD POSTED AND LATER RETRACTED, BUT IT SAID, "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN MARXISTS DON'T GET THEIR WAY," AND ANOTHER ONE HE SAYS, "THIS IS NIGHTMARE ON WALZ STREET," REALLY TRYING TO CONNECT THIS TO THE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR TIM I WONDER, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS THE IMPACT OF THAT KIND OF RHETORIC WHERE THAT BECOMES, I GUESS, ALMOST NORMAL?

WHAT DOES THAT DO TO OVERALL THE CLIMATE OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE?

>> I WANT TO START BY ACTUALLY SAYING LEE RETRACTED THAT.

WE SHOULD APPLAUD HIM FOR THAT BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVEN'T BEEN DOING THAT AND THAT IS KEY.

THAT IS KEY TO REDUCING VIOLENCE IN THE FUTURE IS NOT CELEBRATING IT, NOT POINTING THE FINGER AT SOMEBODY ELSE, BUT TO GET TO YOUR QUESTION, WHEN VIOLENCE STARTS TO BE NORMALIZED, WHEN PEOPLE DON'T CALL IT OUT FOR WHAT IT IS, THEY DON'T CALL THIS TERRORISM, WHICH IS WHAT IT IS, IF THEY DON'T TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT OR THEY DISMISS IT OR THEY USE IT FOR POLITICAL GAIN, IT NORMALIZES VIOLENCE AND IF VIOLENCE IS NORMALIZED OR IF IT'S EVEN CELEBRATED, THEN ONES WHO TEND TO USE VIOLENCE --EXTREMISTS BEGIN TO THINK THAT IT'S NOT ONLY LEGITIMATE, BUT THAT IT'S SOMETHING THAT THEY SHOULD DO AND THEY'LL LEARN THEY WON'T BE PUNISHED FOR IT.

AGAIN, YOU HAVE THE MOTIVE, YOU DON'T WANT PROGRESSIVE POLICIES IN YOUR STATE.

YOU DON'T WANT THE DEMOCRATS IN POWER AND YOU'RE BEING TOLD FROM YOUR POLITICAL LEADERS THAT VIOLENCE IS POTENTIALLY JUSTIFIED AND IF YOU DO IT, ACTUALLY THEY'LL BLAME SOMEBODY ELSE FOR IT, WHICH MEANS YOU'LL GET OFF, THEN THE INCENTIVE TO PURSUE VIOLENCE IS MUCH HIGHER.

>> YOU POINTED OUT SOMETHING WHERE THE POLITICAL VIOLENCE HAS, I GUESS, A BETTER CHANCE IN PLACES WHERE POLITICAL POWER IS BEING CONTESTED.

YOU HAD A RECENT SUBSTACK THAT WAS FASCINATING THAT SAID WHY THE RIGHT TURNS TO VIOLENCE EVEN WHEN IT'S WINNING?

YOU SAID IN THERE TODAY'S REPUBLICANS ARE AT PEAK POWER.

THEY CONTROL ALL THREE BRANCHES OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

THEY'VE APPOINTED THE MAJORITY OF JUDGES.

THEY'VE RESHAPED ELECTION LAWS AT THE STATE LEVEL.

THEY HAVE THE SUPREME COURT.

THEY HAVE THE KEYS TO THE CADILLAC AND CAN CRUISE WHERE THEY WANT.

WHY KILL?

SO WHY ARE REPUBLICANS TAKING THESE ACTS WHEN THEY HAVE THE KEYS TO THE CADILLAC, AS YOU SAY?

>> BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEIR POWER IS FRAGILE.

THEY UNDERSTAND THAT THEY HAVE LOST THE POPULAR VOTE IN SEVEN OUT OF THE LAST EIGHT PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS.

THEY DO NOT FOR THE MOST PART HAVE THE SUPPORT OF A MAJORITY OF AMERICANS AND THAT IS ALSO TRUE OF MANY OF THEIR POLICIES.

MOST AMERICANS --THIS INCLUDES CITIZENS OF RED STATES -- SUPPORT STRICTER GUN CONTROL LAWS.

MOST PEOPLE IN AMERICA SUPPORT THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE AND YET MOST AMERICANS DON'T THINK WE SHOULD CUT MEDICAID AND SOCIAL SECURITY.

SO THE POLICIES THAT THEY'RE PURSUING THEY KNOW MIGHT BE POPULAR WITH A MINORITY OF QUITE WEALTHY AMERICANS, BUT THEY ARE NOT POPULAR WITH A MAJORITY OF THE AMERICANS.

SO IF YOU'RE IN THIS TENUOUS POSITION WHERE YOU'RE IN POWER AND YOU ESSENTIALLY RIGHT NOW HOLD THE KEYS TO THE CADILLAC, YOU'RE VERY AWARE THAT THOSE KEYS COULD BE TAKEN AWAY QUITE QUICKLY AND WHAT THEY'RE DOING NOW WITH VIOLENCE IS NOT ABOUT PUNISHING PEOPLE WHO ARE AGAINST TRUMP OR CRITICAL OF TRUMP OR ARE LIBERAL JUDGES.

THEY ARE PURSUING AN INTIMIDATION STRATEGY DESIGNED TO QUIET PEOPLE, TO DETER THEM FROM RUNNING IN THE FUTURE.

THEY'RE TRYING TO LOCK IN THEIR POWER IN THE FUTURE.

THIS IS A FUTURE-ORIENTED STRATEGY.

IT'S ABOUT CONVINCING PEOPLE THAT ANY SORT OF CRITICISM OR ANY SORT OF CHALLENGE IS GOING TO LOSE AND IS ACTUALLY QUITE DANGEROUS FOR THEM AND THEY WANT TO ESSENTIALLY GET WITH VIOLENCE WHAT THEY CAN'T GUARANTEE AT THE BALLOT BOX.

>> WHEN YOU LOOK AT POLITICAL VIOLENCE AND WHERE IT'S COMING FROM IN THE UNITED STATES, IT'S TRUE THAT THERE ARE INCIDENTS FROM THE FAR LEFT, BUT I WONDER WHAT DOES THE DATA SHOW WHEN IT COMES TO WHICH SIDE OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM IS ENGAGED IN THIS?

IS IT PROPORTIONAL?

IS IT THE SAME?

>> WE HAVE AMAZING DATA ON THE INCIDENTS OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE IN THE COUNTRY GOING BACK DECADES.

IT'S FASCINATING.

IN THE '60s AND '70s, THE VAST MAJORITY OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE WAS DONE BY THE FAR LEFT.

SO A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY STILL ASSOCIATE SORT OF TERRORISM AND VIOLENCE IN THIS COUNTRY WITH GROUPS, FOR ENVIRONMENTALIST GROUPS OR ANARCHIST GROUPS.

THIS IS WHAT WE SAW FOR THE MOST PART DECADES AGO, BUT DOMESTIC TERRORISM AND POLITICAL VIOLENCE PLUMMETED AFTER THE TIMOTHY McVEIGH ATTACKS IN OKLAHOMA CITY.

HE WAS PROBABLY A MEMBER OF A FAR RIGHT MILITIA IN MICHIGAN AND HIS ATTACK AND JUST THE ABSOLUTE DEVASTATION OF THAT REALLY SHOCKED AMERICANS INTO WALKING AWAY AND PULLING THEIR SUPPORT FROM A LOT OF MILITIAS AND FROM NO LONGER TOLERATING THIS TYPE OF VIOLENCE AND THE FBI IMPORTANTLY BECAME QUITE AGGRESSIVE IN GOING AFTER THESE SORTS OF VIOLENT EXTREMISTS IN THIS COUNTRY.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE GRAPH, IT JUST PLUMMETED AFTER 1995.

IT STARTED TO INCREASE AGAIN AROUND 2010, 2012 AND THEN IT IT CONTINUES TO INCREASE TODAY, BUT THE PERPETRATORS OF THE NEW VIOLENCE ARE QUITE DIFFERENT.

IT'S OVERWHELMINGLY FAR RIGHT GROUPS.

SO THE LEFT, IT'S STILL AROUND A LITTLE BIT IT.

HAS INCREASED A LITTLE BIT OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS, BUT THERE IS EXPONENTIALLY MORE VIOLENCE COMING FROM THE FAR RIGHT AND IT'S MUCH MORE DEADLY FROM THE TYPE OF VIOLENCE THAT'S HAPPENING ON THE LEFT.

SO IT'S NOT, FOR EXAMPLE, TARGETED AT INFRASTRUCTURE AND BUILDINGS.

IT'S TARGETED AT PEOPLE.

AS WE SAW THIS PAST WEEKEND, IT'S ACTUALLY EFFECTIVE.

THEY'RE ACTUALLY SUCCEEDING IN ASSASSINATING AND INTIMIDATING LOTS OF DIFFERENT PUBLIC FIGURES.

SO WHAT'S HAPPENING TODAY IS COMING OVERWHELMINGLY FROM THE FAR RIGHT.

>> JUST IN THE LAST COUPLE WEEKS WE HAVE SEEN THE DEPLOYMENT OF NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS TO PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID TO QUELL THE VIOLENCE IN THE POLITICAL PROTESTS THAT WERE HAPPENING IN LOS ANGELES AND GOVERNOR GAVIN NEWSOM OF CALIFORNIA HAS DESCRIBED IT AS WHAT WE'RE WITNESSING IS NOT LAW ENFORCEMENT.

IT'S AUTHORITARIANISM AND I WONDER HOW YOU KIND OF SEE THAT DECISION TO PUT U.S.

TROOPS ON THE GROUND IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> THIS IS A CLASSIC MOVE BY DICTATORS AND BY INDIVIDUALS WHO WANT TO BE DICTATORS.

THEY LIKE TO SEND A SIGNAL TO PROTESTERS THAT IF YOU GO OUT IN THE STREET, WE'RE GOING TO REACT.

IT'S GOING TO BE COSTLY TO YOU AND SO YOU SHOULD STAY AT HOME.

SO IT'S A DETERRENT STRATEGY AND SO I THINK HE WENT INTO LOS ANGELES IN PART TO SEND A SIGNAL TO ATLANTA AND TO AUSTIN AND TO BOSTON AND TO OTHER CITIZENS AROUND THE COUNTRY WHO ARE ANGRY AND MIGHT JOIN THOSE PROTESTS, IT'S GOING TO GET UGLY AND IT'S NOT GOING TO BE SAFE AND YOU SHOULD JUST STAY SILENT, BUT I ALSO THINK HE WAS PURSUING A SECOND STRATEGY AND HE'S BACKED DOWN FROM THIS, BUT IT'S STILL IN HIS TOOL KIT, SO WATCH OUT FOR IT.

THE SECOND STRATEGY IS SOMETHING WE CALL A PROVOCATION STRATEGY.

SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT AUTOCRATS LIKE TO DO IS THEY LIKE TO PROVOKE SOME SORT OF ATTACK AND THAT COULD BE FROM AN ENEMY OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES, HOPEFULLY A WEAKER ENEMY OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES, BUT IT COULD ALSO BE FROM SOMEBODY THEY PERCEIVED TO BE AN ENEMY WITHIN THE STATE.

YOU PROVOKE VIOLENCE FROM THIS GROUP.

THEN YOU CAPTURE THAT RIOTING OR VIOLENCE THROWING BRICKS INTO STORE FRONTS ON VIDEO AND YOU USE THIS TO CONVINCE THE REST OF AMERICA THAT PROTESTERS ARE TERRORISTS, PROTESTERS ARE THE ENEMY, PROTESTERS ARE NOT REAL AMERICANS AND THIS THEN NOT ONLY JUSTIFIES USING FORCE AGAINST THEM, BUT IT JUSTIFIES POTENTIALLY DECLARING MARTIAL LAW OR INSTITUTING EMERGENCY POWERS.

IT'S A WAY FOR AUTOCRATS TO GRAB MORE POWER AND HAVE THE COMPLIANCE OR THE SUPPORT OF CITIZENS BECAUSE ULTIMATELY HUMAN BEINGS ARE ALL THE SAME.

WHEN GIVEN A CHOICE BETWEEN FEELING SECURE AND SAFE AND HAVING FREEDOM, THEY WILL CHOOSE SAFETY AND SECURITY OVER RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS AND SO AUTOCRATS WILL MANUFACTURE CRISES OR THEY WILL MANUFACTURE VIOLENCE SO THAT THEY CAN THEN TURN TO CITIZENS AND SAY, "YOU KNOW SOMETHING?

WE ARE ALL IN DANGER FROM THESE HOSTILE FORCES.

I WILL TAKE CARE OF IT, BUT GOING TO NEED EXTRAORDINARY POWERS TO DO THAT."

>> THERE HAVE BEEN SOME RECENT SURVEY DATA ABOUT HOW COMFORTABLE PEOPLE ARE WITH POLITICAL VIOLENCE ACCORDING TO THE CHICAGO PROJECT ON SECURITY AND THREATS.

THE MOST RECENT SURVEY IN MAY REVEALED ABOUT 40% OF DEMOCRATS SUPPORTED THE USE OF FORCE TO REMOVE MR. TRUMP FROM THE PRESIDENCY.

ABOUT 25% OF REPUBLICANS SUPPORTED THE USE OF THE MILITARY TO STOP PROTESTS AGAINST MR. TRUMP'S AGENDA.

THESE NUMBERS MORE THAN DOUBLED SINCE LAST FALL.

WHAT DOES THAT SAY TO YOU?

>> IT SAYS AMERICANS ARE BECOMING MORE AND MORE UNHAPPY WITH THE STATUS QUO AND THAT THEY ARE MORE WILLING TO USE VIOLENCE TO CHANGE IT, THAT THEY'RE SEEING IT AS AN ACCEPTABLE TOOL TO GET WHAT THEY WANT.

FOR ME, ONE OF THE MOST TROUBLING ASPECTS OF THAT NEW SURVEY IS IF YOU LOOK GENERATIONALLY, THE GROUP THAT SUPPORTS IT THE MOST ARE GENERATION Z.

SO IT'S THE YOUNGER GENERATION ACTUALLY THAT IS MORE WILLING TO USE VIOLENCE, THAT SEES VIOLENCE AS MORE ACCEPTABLE THAN, FOR EXAMPLE, THE BABY BOOMERS AND I THINK MY INTERPRETATION OF THAT IS THAT THEY'VE GROWN UP IN A MORE VIOLENT WORLD.

THEY'VE GROWN UP IN A WORLD WHERE LEADERS LEGITIMIZE VIOLENCE, WHERE PRESIDENTS SORT OF ENCOURAGE IT, WHERE THEY'VE WATCHED PEOPLE ENGAGE IN WHAT MIGHT IN THE PAST HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED TREASON AND CERTAINLY PUNISHABLE, THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTIONISTS.

THEY'VE WATCHED THEM BE PARDONED.

SO THEY'VE LIVED IN A WORLD WHERE VIOLENCE IS NOT AS SHOCKING AND AS TABOO AS IT WAS WHEN YOU AND I GREW UP.

THE MESSAGE THIS SENDS IS THAT THIS IS ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR AND IN THE ATTITUDES OF AVERAGE CITIZENS AND WE'RE STARTING TO SEE IT IN WHAT SOME OF THE MORE EXTREME ELEMENTS OF THE POPULATION ARE WILLING TO DO.

>> BARBARA WALTER, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> IT'S MY PLEASURE.