[groovy R&B music] - Welcome to Fatherhood, where we uplift voices and redefine legacy by highlighting the strength, sacrifice, and stories of black fathers shaping our communities every day.

Today's conversation is about being present, being real, and being honest.

Fatherhood is filled with highs and lows, moments of joy, moments of pressure, and moments that test who you are as a man.

We're sitting down with fathers who are opening up about their journey, their trials, and their triumphs.

So joining us today are a group of fathers who are showing up, who are doing the work, and leading with intention.

Please welcome Brent Hooks, Maarifa Arnett, and Darius Lewis.

- Hey, how you guys doing?

- Good.

- Well, I appreciate y'all being here.

I'm looking forward to the conversation and if y'all are feeling good, then we can dive right into it.

- Absolutely.

- Y'all ready?

- Yep.

- Absolutely.

- All right.

So fatherhood isn't always a straight path, fellas.

I mean, each of you have experienced moments that have shaped how you show up as a man and as a father.

So what I'm curious, I think in today's world, I think we see a lot of the highlights of fatherhood, right?

Especially on social media, whether it's on Facebook or Instagram.

I think we see people showing the highs of what it means to be a father, but not necessarily the lows, right?

So I'm curious if there are any "low" moments, I put air quotes around that, right?

"Low" moments in your life that really taught you the most about who you wanted to be as a man.

- I would say for me, when we're talking, dealing with, you know, the kids that were, for me, I would say, me walking into, you know, an already-made family and understanding that I'm not the kid's biological father.

Not understanding what that dynamic really was gonna look like.

Because, you know, honestly as a, all of us can probably say as fathers, we don't have a blueprint on how it should go or how it should work.

I think the key thing that we all have to know that we have to have is love.

So we have to have that with the significant other if we're gonna be stepping into that role.

But the thing for me was knowing that they're not going to initially be calling me dad and having them, you know, not, you know, acknowledging me as that, but just acknowledging me, you know, as my first name, like, "Hey, Darius," or, "How you doing, Darius?"

But still understanding that, you know, I'm their male figure in their household, but them not actually calling me dad.

I think mentally I had to, you know, mature in that area- - Okay.

- To be like, you know what?

I can't force that on them, you know, because I have to realize that I'm not their dad so I can't force that on them.

It has to be something that, you know, genuinely happens.

And I think the highest point is when I walked past my young fellow's room and he was talking to his friend and he said, "My stepdad."

And what I realized is like, they probably won't say it to me as dad, but to their friends and people on the outside, they'll reference me as their stepdad.

And I think that was like a high and low point for me to see that, you know, evolve the way that it evolved and it was something that just happened naturally.

So.

- I love that.

- Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question, just thinking about low points in fatherhood.

I was really contemplating what I could say.

But I think for me it's really the discipline aspect because I'm really more like a fun dad, I be wanting to hang.

I typically like just having fun and hanging out.

And so the low moments for me typically come with the discipline because I do not really like spanking my daughter or doing stuff like that, but I will, so.

[people laughing] So those are the low moments and just trying to fine tune like when is it right to fuss or spank, or, you know, just how to control that aspect while building confidence.

Because I think one of the most important things for me is to ensure that my daughter is independent.

I have a 13 year old and I'm trying to make her creative and confident.

And so I have these certain little sayings that I tell her that I feel like, you know, as long as she keeps this in mind, it'll last with her for a long period of time.

So I always tell her "practice builds creativity and confidence".

And I tell her to repeat it to me and stuff like that.

But the disciplinarian part is the thing that kind of is a low point for me because I'm not- - We don't enjoy that part of it.

- I don't like that, yeah.

- Yeah.

- I understand.

- Yeah.

- Well, the first thing that came to mind when you said that was a low point in my high school career.

I felt like I was the man in high school, got the big head, and felt as though, honestly at that time, that I had had life figured out better than most adults around me.

- Okay.

- And that led me to not necessarily listen to the rules that they had established because I felt as though I knew more on how to navigate this world better.

That's how silly I was as a kid until I got into a situation my senior year that ended up me being expelled from school.

And the hardship that I had to, or just the realization of, oh, I though I had everything going.

You know, my scholarship was in line, everybody viewed me in a certain way, including my family as well as my school.

And so when that situation happened, it's as if the rug was pulled from underneath me, and it humbled me in a way that I didn't know that I needed.

But it also taught me that the power of the present moment.

I had already done what I did.

I had already, and I felt as though that one moment made them forget the good kid I had been this whole time.

- Yeah.

- And I said, oh, well, if that one moment could be significant enough to land me here, then the next moment can be significant enough to get me out of it.

And so just knowing that you know, you can have a down period, but it's about how you decide to focus and not shy away from that but lean into the vulnerability that led you to that moment and strengthening your weaknesses.

- Yeah, talk to me more about how that impacts you as a father, because I think that's a very interesting perspective.

- Well, it gives me the grace with my daughters and son.

I have 10-year-old twins, girls, then their little sister, eight year old, and then they all have a little brother, two year old.

- God bless you.

- Thank you, brother, I feel blessed.

[people laughing] And so it gives me grace for them knowing the mistakes that I'm making as an adult man thinking about how as an eight year old, you've only been here eight years navigating this tough terrain.

It allows me to give space between whatever infraction that I feel as though should be corrected and my disciplinary action because I have been in a situation where I responded hastily and I had to deal with the consequences of my response, whether it be positive or negative.

I have had times where I've reflected on my response and not been proud.

And so it gives me the opportunity that on the next time to say, slow down because how you are feeling, your emotions, the direct response that you may want to give may not be the most impactful response.

And so it makes me say, okay, whatever led my child to do that, it didn't happen in a moment's notice.

So my response doesn't have to be as quick.

I can take my time to make sure that it's proper.

So that's what that moment taught me.

They didn't make that decision overnight.

- Yeah, yeah.

- And so my response doesn't have to be as quick.

- I love that, I love that.

And so with that in mind, what are some of the highs of fatherhood that, and then particularly some that, you know, the public might not always see?

- I think for me the highs have to be when you like getting them up in the morning, and getting them, you know, dressed for school and stuff like that.

I think breaking that barrier of them not wanting- I remember how I was when I was, you know, young and I ain't want to get up, you know what I'm saying?

I didn't want to get up from school early in the morning, but like actually having me be with the boy and then having my fiance be with the girl and we both working in sync, you know what I'm saying?

To me, like that's a really cool thing because it's like one of those speechless communicating avenues that we have.

She knows that, okay, I'm gonna work with her, get her ready, X, Y, and Z, can you knock this out for me?

And then getting them ready and then sending them off to school.

And then also, you know, taking them to, when I take my son, my stepson, to karate, you know, having him in TaeKwonDo and he's there, he's doing his little moves and then he'll look over at me to see if I saw it.

Like he picks out, he knows if I'm on my phone, he'll be like, "You didn't see me do this, you was on your phone."

And I have to be in the moment.

And I think those are the high points to be like, man, you have to understand that, that's you pouring into them because that's building that, like he said, that's building their confidence.

- And they're paying attention.

- And they're paying attention to it because they want you to see when they do good things or they get selected.

Like just him playing the little game and he'll ask me to come in there and play Fortnite with him.

I'm horrible at the first person shooting games.

I suck at it, I'm not even gonna lie to you.

So when I played it with him, he'd be getting mad at me.

He'd be like, so last night he was like, "Well, just come watch me play it."

And so I went in there and watched him play.

He won first place and everything.

I was like, "Man, good job."

- He was like, this is how it's done.

- Yeah, and he was like this.

And so I was like, man, and it was just one of those moments like, you know what, man, like I see it in him.

He's gonna be that, and I won't say perfectionist, but he's gonna be that person that wants to learn and wants to continue to get better.

But he needs that, you know what I'm saying, he needs that, what's the word I'm looking for?

He needs me to be there to be like, man, I see you.

- He needs that presence, right?

- He does need that.

- And so that actually, I'm glad you said that because what I'd like to talk about now is providing versus presence, right?

I think as men, our natural inclination is to be providers, right?

But does providing trump presence, you know, is providing more important or just as important as presence or how would you rank those?

- I generally think that they both are critical.

They both are very paramount.

But there's a different factor in presence that you will get that you won't get from providing because I have all these little sayings.

Like so with leadership, I feel like you have to demonstrate and communicate.

So providing is more like, I will put it in line with communication.

Like you're giving them something, you showing, you know, you're providing something.

But demonstrating like kids most of the time, they're gonna mimic you.

Like so if you are telling them something but you're not showing them what to do, it's totally different.

But I think it's important just as a man to provide.

Like it's just, it's an innate thing that I think that's built into being a man.

It might be just cultural, I don't know, but I feel like it's very important to provide because I want my daughter to have a man that provides for her and for my grandkids or whatever the case may be.

And so but taking my daughter to school every morning, it gives me an opportunity to talk to her about life, you know what I mean?

So just being, like I've done that since she's been in kindergarten and she's in the seventh grade now.

So I've seen the evolution of her communication, her thoughts, everything.

And just that 15-, 30-minute ride.

Not only is she learning- - Y'all drive a long way for school.

- Yeah.

[people laughing] - Read a whole book in that time.

[people laughing] - I'm telling her to read, but it's just, I mean, that's when I get some of my best communication.

I see what, you know, what she has planned for today or what she's thinking about.

And so I think that being present might be underrated, but it's very important.

But I mean, being a provider, it's like, I value that highly.

- Yeah, yeah.

- The question that I had to ask myself is, am I being for my children who they want me to be for them or who I think they want me to be for them, right?

And sometimes we don't always value a child's perspective of what they want.

- Right.

- And I really had to ask myself how was I, one, providing, and how was I being present?

How I was providing for them was making me show up differently because of my occupation wasn't fulfilling me as an individual, as a man.

And I said, well, if I'm sacrificing who I am as an individual for my children, do they want that for me?

- Right?

- Right.

- Do they want their father to sacrifice his personality, his joy, his creativity for maybe another gymnastics subscription, or, you know- - Especially if it affects who he is when he comes home.

- Yeah, that's right.

- Exactly, exactly.

And I remember one time my daughters, this is around the height of my logistics company.

I had made more money than my parents had ever made and my family, right.

I just felt I was doing something special.

Then I came home and my daughters were like "You don't play with us anymore."

And I remember having scheduled play time with them and I said, "Nope, remember on Wednesday I played with y'all 30 minutes."

And I said, "Oh, oh."

[people laughing] "What am I doing?"

I used to want to play with them.

I used to feel the energy, right?

And be in it with them.

So not only am I playing the dinosaur, I feel like I'm in a cave right now versus I haven't played with them, let me give them the 30 minutes, they can feel I'm not involved.

They're like, this isn't the guy that I know.

And so, and I don't want to take up too much time on that.

But I had to go through a process where it's like, I'm showing up for them in a way that I think that they would want me to show up.

But if I can interview them at 20, at 30, would they value that?

Or would they value who I was to them, for them in that moment?

And so yeah, that's how I feel kind of about providing is paramount.

- Yeah.

- Very important.

- I think you need a fine balance.

- Got to.

- But I mean, I definitely appreciate the thought process behind the presence and the analogy.

- And the analogy was great.

That was spot on, I love that.

- Yeah, the analogy was, yeah.

- So I want to pivot slightly here because there are moments that, they're defining moments that we catch ourselves in, you know, as men in life, and they force us to grow, to be accountable, and they force a deeper understanding of what it truly means to be a father, right?

So I'd love to hear if there was that mirror moment for y'all where you, you know, you took a look at yourself and you realized that I need to change directions if I really am gonna be the father that my kids deserve.

Is there a specific moment that comes to mind?

- For me, I would say when I lost a job that I had.

And it was, I think, you know, as a man, you know, like you said, we were just talking about the provider piece.

And you know, you always want to feel like that you are a provider.

And one, you don't want to lose the household, you know what I'm saying?

So to speak.

And you want to always make sure that you have this strong presence still.

And I think for me in that moment, I looked at, you know, the situation that I was in and I was like, you know, there's two ways that this could go.

I could either, you know what I'm saying, sink into that sunken place.

And because, you know what I'm saying?

Like when you get laid off or get fired, people don't tell you, but it's hard get a job on that same level that you had.

- Sure.

- You know, you have to go through those phases.

And then two, you think in your mind like, okay, you can easily go out and get another job, but now you may have to start from the bottom to build yourself back up to where you were, you know, to get back to that position.

And then for me, it was understanding like, hey Darius, you know what I'm saying?

Like you came into their lives at a pivotal moment, you know what I'm saying?

Like you came into their lives at two years old, you made a commitment to this woman.

She's still here with you helping you guide you through this, which is commendable, you know what I'm saying?

But still internally as a man, you have to deal with, you know, I just lost a job.

I don't have, you know what I'm saying, means to provide, so to speak.

And I think for me at that point in time, I had to understand like I still have to show up for them.

I still have to be their protector for them and there's other ways that I can provide for them.

Like, you know, I can still provide love for them.

You know, I can still, you know, provide, you know, companionship, empathy, you know, those things.

And I think for me, it was me realizing that aspect of it, is, you know, money is money, I'm not trying to stray away from that.

We need money because bills still come.

- Yeah, you need money.

- Yeah, yeah, it doesn't stop.

But it taught me and I looked at myself like 10 years ago, if I would have been in a situation like that, how I would have treated it, but I was alone and I felt like it, you know, this was only me, it was just on me.

Now I have three other people who are looking at me for, you know what I'm saying, that leadership.

So for one, the kids don't know that I lost my job so I don't want to go into it and like, you know, you say when they come and ask you to play with them.

- Yeah.

- I don't want to be like, no, I'm not feeling it because I'm, you know, down and depressed about it.

But my fiance said something to me that really showed me my growth.

She was like, "I'm proud that you didn't go into that place," because she was like, "I was so scared that this was gonna happen."

- Yeah.

- "But you didn't do that.

You showed up, you did," you know, "You continued to help me out, continued to show X, Y, and Z."

And when, you know, when I was blessed to, you know, get back into a position where I was back employed and everything like that, it was kind of like, it wasn't picking up and just building back, but it was just already having and just running with what we already had.

But now I'm back in a good place mentally because she never allowed me to sink in that place.

So I think for me that was just a point where I had to look in the mirror and just realize that growth in myself.

- Okay.

- I probably had a bunch of life experiences that I would want my daughter to learn from.

But most recently, I'd say, so I've been studying to become a CPA.

And so I took the test, I've been studying, I failed the test.

So me trying to show her like, look, it's okay [chuckles].

Like this is what hard works look like.

You won't pass every single test, but you got to keep going.

So I took it again, studied longer and I passed it.

Because she actually was making fun of me like, "How you gonna say something to me about school?"

[people laughing] So but it was just an experience like to show her like, look, I had to mentally regroup, show her like a lot of stuff was going on in my life at that time where I was transitioning, I was moving from one house to another house, selling the house and essentially just showing her like, you just have to be dedicated to your goals.

And so when I passed it, she was excited just seeing how it demonstrated an opportunity for you to use... obstacles as a stepping stone.

Like it's just an opportunity for me to continue to grow and like, you won't accomplish everything maybe the first time or second time sometimes, you just got to keep going, keep pushing.

So I think that was one.

But then a more critical moment probably in fatherhood and my marital life is like separating from her mom.

We separated for maybe like two years and just showing her, I learned a lot during that experience, first of all, but showing her how I was gonna operate throughout that situation.

We ended up getting back together, so that was cool.

But [laughs], yeah.

[people laughing] - It don't normally happen.

- Yeah, but so that's been interesting and no, it's been good though.

So, but just showing her just different obstacles throughout life, like how you handle obstacles, how you overcome challenges.

So it's just been interesting.

- Man, shout out to y'all.

I love hearing y'all reflections because it really helps me identify how it is that I parent, how it is that I father.

You brought up not necessarily letting the kids know, hey, you know, that I lost my job.

I have a different approach.

I see the value in that for sure.

I take almost an opposite approach.

I really bring my children in on everything that's going on in a way that I feel gives them a perspective that is valuable in the moment, right?

Sometimes we have situations that once we grow up, we look on our childhood and say, "Oh man, we were going through that at this time.

I didn't know."

As a father, like to talk to my father and he went through a job loss around 30, 32 and I remember him being depressed.

As a kid, I remember my dad not being my daddy.

I started calling him pops.

I'm like, because you ain't acting like a daddy right now.

You acting like a pops, right?

And so I remember that acutely as a child, but now as an adult, he gives me more insight, details, and as a man, I can recognize and empathize with him in a way that created resentment at that moment and distance between me and him as a father and son.

I'm like, I don't even understand why you're behaving this way or why you're treating me this way.

But if I had an insight, then maybe I could have had helped him through it, honestly.

Because one of the things that I remember is this is all of our first time doing this.

Like I might be 20 years older than you child, but this is my first time on this planet as well.

You may have recognized something that I haven't yet.

So valuing their input as much as my own as a being, as a human being and with my autonomy and authority, the faster it is that we give them that, or trust them with their autonomy, the quicker they'll show us.

They'll show us lessons that we can learn.

So one of the things that I did learn as a father and that changed my, how I fathered was learning that they have as much to teach me as I have to teach them.

- Yeah.

- And giving them the authority to tell me.

One, I got to let you talk back to even teach me.

- Yeah, be careful with that.

- And there is a transition.

I know how we were raised, I know how I was raised.

We didn't always have that leash.

But I found that giving them that leash and allowing them to make mistakes gives them that independence earlier so that they, when they go off into this world alone without me guiding them, they know how to navigate.

So that's one thing that was reflected to me.

- I think the open communication allow you to kind of guide them a little bit more too.

It's like, well, I like where you're going, but have you thought about this?

- For sure.

- And so it's like that back and forth communication I think really adds value.

- Yeah, and like you said, it allows them to be more free with you.

Sometimes they won't even tell you how they really thinking if you always scold them.

- Yeah.

- Right?

But that open communication, they will let you know, "Well, actually, I was planning on sneaking and getting this."

Like okay, well thank you for telling me.

This is why you shouldn't have, right?

- Look, this has been a great conversation fellas.

Obviously this is something that we could talk about for two hours alone, right, and still not touch on all the topics that we would love to really touch on.

Thank you for your honesty, your vulnerability, and for sharing your stories with us today.

Today's conversation reminds us that fatherhood isn't about perfection.

It's about presence.

It's about showing up through the highs and the lows, being honest about the journey, doing the work, and growing into the man that your children need you to be.

Because in the end, being present and devoted can change everything.

Thank you again to our panelists.

I'm Nate Ollie, and this is Fatherhood, where we uplift voices and redefine legacy.

Thank you for joining us.

[groovy R&B music] [acoustic guitar chords]